265 Overheating with Wagner Intercooler

Discussion in 'Mechanical - Engine, Gearbox, Exhaust etc' started by eduardbooster, Jan 11, 2024.

  1. Hey folks!

    I'm experiencing oil temps creep up to 122 C on track or while thrashing it up a mountain.
    It started after fiting a Wagner IC.
    Track air temps round 30 C , Mountain road air temps round 15 degrees.

    I know my thermostat works cause while cold, oil temps stay at round 83C, and if I push a little up the mountain it doesn't go past 105 degs, with fans runing fine.

    It doesn't have any codes, car is on stock map.

    I reckon installing a 75 deg stat won't help much.

    Am I ok in thinking this is expected, and I should proceed with probably an oil cooler? or do you guys think there's something else to be checked/done to improve this ?

    Cheers!


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  2. 122 degrees, is that all, i put a gauge in my R26, okay its forged and running 405hp, Airtec intercooler, etc etc on track i regularly see 130 + and on a few occasions i've seen 150 degrees, no oil cooler fitted.

    The oil temp on the Mk3 is not a true oil temperature, it's a calculated reading, i tracked the hell out of my forged 265 and never had a problem.

    I think some have had issues with the odd intercooler, but the 90mm (stage 2 ) versions, but i think that affected water temps.

    Ohhh and my temperature gauge never moved on my 265, or my R26 what ever i was doing with it, fast road and mostly track work.
     
  3. Thanks Ian. It's just that with the OE intercooler, temperature gauge never went past the middle, no matter how many laps; but now I'm freaking with this one going 3/4 needle after 4 laps.

    I was also considering to put back the OE intercooler but I spent so much with the Wagner I want to be able to keep it and see if I should just live with this higher temps from now on. The way you put it gives me some relief..
     
  4. This is not an issue i've heard from other people that use a Wagner IC, but we live in a colder climate.
    The oil temps your reading, is that from an actual oil temp sensor or the calculated one in RS Monitor?
     
  5. it's on the calculated one. Thankfully every time it hits that temperature and the water temp gauge gets to 3/4 I haven't noticed a performace decline or a check engine light, I just let off the throttle. But may be I can keep pushing.

    out here its quite hot to be honest, and I don't want to drill holes to the bumper
     
  6. Sounds like it would be worth double checking your install, so as to make sure all frontal air flows thru radiator are correct and unimpeded and as per installation instructions.

    From my understanding the advantage of the Wagner IC over others is the unit it's not that much taller than stock IC , and extra cooling is achieved by primarily extra depth. As the map hasn't changed since installing you are not putting extra kW losses into the coolant system, I would only expect marginal reduction in air flow thru small "shadow" after the IC onto the radiator (so slightly reducing cooling efficiency).

    But you seem to be saying there has been a substantial increase in temps since fitting the IC, with NO map changes.

    Watching this video (23 minute mark), make sure modified side baffle deflectors have been correctly modified and fitted.
     
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  7. If it’s any consolation, mine gets equally as hot on the water temp with a Pro-alloy cooler.
     
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  8. That CLM intercooler is on my mind for a near future. I think the best choice is Wagner, but honestly, the CLM is almost the same design for much less money.
    And backing to the main theme, those plastics that guides the air flows to the radiator, are very important. I remember a Clio Williams, the owner change the OEM radiator to a full alloy and bigger one. He surprised when see the water temps was higher. We did ask him why the hell remove those plastics and recommended to fit them again. Next time we did meet him in a track day he come to us with hugs and thanks:laughing::laughing::laughing:
    Sometimes a little piece make the difference.
     
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  9. autronix

    autronix RSM Club Member

    just go for Wagner. is top quality item , will fit just like an oem unit.

    IMG_20230729_120258836.jpg

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    IMG_20230729_171150256.jpg
     
  10. Thanks Zoto,

    Yes, I followed the cutting procedure as per the short manual to cut the side deflectors. Top side was left origial and botton cut as instructed.

    Selected photo.jpg
     
  11. Thanks Manu,

    I spent some time reading others' experiences on different IC options. I almost ended up with the CLM as I like the silver finish better, and finding out the black paint doesn't actually do anything. But shipping was more expensive to me than Wagner and now I'm starting to get used to the stealth look of the thing.

    I'm happy with the air intake temp drops, and to be honest maybe it's just me freaking out to see the water temp needle move from half.
    Here's a pic of how much it blocks the radiator, I'd say pretty little actually.

    image_jpeg.jpg
     
    manugtt likes this.
  12. Hello Guys, I`m German and I have the Wagner fitted since about 4 years. The problem ist that I started to move the car in Hockenheim 3 or 4 times a year after I´ve fitted the Wagner. Basically, the MRS3 has water temp issues when moving on the track at least with outside temps of more than 20°C. I did some track stints with 30° and my water temp raised to 108° and worse, if you keep pushing, the engine will loose significantly power, estimated about 30 , maybe 40 hp. Mine is the 273 one. Last year in Juli or Aug, I drove first lap and overtook a VW Polo race car without any trouble, after some laps
     
  13. After some laps, I had troubles to follow the Polo cause my car dropped in power with water temps of almost 110°.
    Basically the problem of the MRS3 ist the water cooler and it´s poor design. Have a look at a Forge water cooler supplier, the are explaining that there´s a short between in - and outlet of the cooler what doesn´t utilise the cooler surface in no way. The area where the most flow takes place is even covered by the crash bar - unbelieveable. If you push a MRS3 with high temps, at about 110° she loses power to protect the engine and prevents the water from boiling.
    Unfortunately, the Forge cooler whats design is way better, is not compatible to the Wagner IC ....
    I have also fitted a 75° Thermostat, with those temps, it has no advantage at all. Every thermostat opens all its way possible and if its fully open, the capacity of the cooler will determine the water temp what is present. It make only sense if your cooler is big enough to keep the thermostat within the control range.
    What can we do with the Wagner IC? I thought about trying to make some air baffles between air intake and cooler surface to get more air to the high flow area behind the crash bar. I also thought about making an own cooler matched to the Wagner, a lot of work to shape the water reservoirs with a baffle plate to control water flow from intake to the lower area before it enters the radiator net. The Forge cooler is very expensive, you can work some days for a similar solution if you can deal with sheet metal and welding.....
     
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  14. Sorry with both posts above, I shot it out too quick......
     
  15. I second your experience. To be honest here where I live we're used to 30 C temps, and before I installed the WagnerIC I used to lap consistently at my local race track without performance degradation. Now with the upgraded IC I'm capable of doing one or two laps faster than I used to, but then I have to do more cool down laps because water temps raise and performance is substantially degraded. I also installed a 75 C thermostat.

    At this point I'm considering either an external oil cooler so this doesn't take as much strain out of the water cooling system, or may be just put back the old OEM IC for better consistency.

    It's just my experience, I know you guys don't face as much high ambient temps as I do, but I have to work around this.
    And I refuse to drill holes to the front.
     
  16. To add to this.. I also have a Wagner, and I found out the hard way that if you go out on track in over 30deg air temp, the radiator just can't keep up. I was 3 laps into a race chasing a 993, my dash lit up like a xmas tree... Dash said something about stop immediately, engine failure critical...or something like that! Immediately lifted, and spotted the water temp was at 119deg C but dropping pretty quickly (warnings dissappeared once below 120) as I rolled back into the pits. Id say I was over 120 for about 10 seconds.
    Anyway.. Back in the pits I found a tiny crack in the coolant expansion tank. Replaced that and hoped for the best..
    Next track day, and 28 degs air temp.. And I could lap all day with peak water temp around 108-110
    Following test day was a steamy 33degs.. Could only get in 2 laps before 112deg and climbing.. so bailed out.
    Just fitted a 19 row oil cooler, and racing yesterday.. 25-26degs air temp, and water never got over 102, but was generally below 100.

    Story here... Oil cooler for the win. Also increases oil capacity to about 6 liters! So that helps as well

    Car is pretty stock.. tuned to 295 WHP. Radiator is running water + Redline Water Wetter
     
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  17. thanks for your input Chris_chch, I'm glad to know the oil cooler worked for you, I'm pretty tempted now.
    If you don't mind me asking, where in the front of your car did you put the oil cooler radiator?
     
  18. I put it where the washer bottle normally sits. I cut the diamonds out of the bumper to allow air flow, and cut a hole in the inner arch to let air back out. Put mesh over the arch hole to stop rocks hitting the cooler.
     
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  20. autronix

    autronix RSM Club Member

    I have extensively tested this on Honda K20 at Monza race track in Italy.
    (this is a track that is very demanding for the engine)

    I had Stack instrumentation with solid state sensors , high-flow sandwich plate / lines and Setrab 19 row oil cooler.
    I had the sensor mounted at the block entry to monitor real time oil feed.

    as the oil sandwich plate is mounted near the exhaust headers I had 2 test external termistors bolted on the sandwich plate to test the heat radiations from the headers that may alter the measurements. I used those just for testing.

    car in question is EP3 Honda , with no oil cooler I had 84 celsius degrees coolant and oil raised to 120+ and test was aborted.
    with the oil cooler setup I had same 84C coolant and the oil was 100C max. so in this case ECT was the same for different oil temps.

    (oil was replaced every track session , around 20 minutes and the test with and no oil cooler was done in 2 days , time to setup the system)


    running 120C oil temps is very risky , the oil film at that temp and sustained high load is closed to the limit , not worth the risk imho.
    the wear on the engine can be very high, the cost of proper setup is worth every penny.

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    another big factor is the map .... some so called tuners are lasy to install a proper wideband setup in the headers to have the right AFR resolution. is more convenient to bolt it on the end tail pipe that translates to big gas delays and almost none resolution of the real values. (just read out the data sheet and instalation guides of any aftermarket wideband sensor for the mounting location.)

    to mitigate this some (tuners) will run the "safe" excessively rich (in best scenarios) and this will contaminate the oil with fuel in no time. often bigger spec injectors (unnecessary big) for the actual spec are used this will also alter the atomisation at idle / low load that will contaminate the oil mostly on cold engine condition and also alter the cylinder oil film, etc. also "desperate" ring end gaps are used that will further get bigger due to the alterate friction and the blow-by and raw fuel will get in the crankcase , etc

    (the latest EU6 MK3 MS3125 ECU have wideband closed loop system and will follow the AFR target instantly by oem sensor and the fuelling is in spec.)

    I am finish my rebuild on a MK3 RS , forged engine + Borg Warner EFR6758 but the car will never see the track without oil cooler.

    I will use the same high flow thermostatic plate and Setrab cooler + solid state Stack sensors. I also got those plastics for the front bumper. the right side one is obsolete. I have it on my other diesel megane I may swap to the RS.

    IMG_20240227_192423251.jpg IMG_20240227_192507585.jpg



    I consider also to get a new bumper and modify this for track use only. I have a custom bumper mounting system with bolts instead of the plastic oem.

    like Eduardbooster I also don`t like to drill the bumper for the "main" bumper.
     
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  21. autronix

    autronix RSM Club Member

    .... what I wanted to say with this post is that many times the coolant temps will not reflect the oil temps.
    on the above test from 100 to 150 degs Celsius oil temps the coolant was 84 degs dead.
    that was on NA engine so the F4R turbo will have further higher values. so 120 degs of coolant may translate in quite high oil temp values.

    as stated here the oil temp value from the RS menu is a calculated one emulated from EGT but the real values are not linear / exponential due to so many factors involved.

    remote oil temp location also plays a big factor. the block inlet is is preferable for having the value of the oil entering the engine after the oil cooler. same oil temp sensor mounted on the oil pan for example will give more lower temps (tested this also) due to obvious reasons.

    also a thermostatic plate is helping with cold start oil pressure due to the "shorter" oil path not using the cooler then gradually open the main oil circuit. this helps also with the potential air pockets in the oil lines that will be gradually flushed.

    once open this oil thermostat will remain open , will not close like the coolant one due to thermal inertia from the engine block , etc.

    this is the plate I use :

    https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p/mocal-oil-sandwich-plate-with-thermostat-high-flow-m-otsp1-hf

    is such a shame that the MK3 has this cooling issue , also the number plate and the horns will obstruct the air flow ...
     
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  22. thank you Autronix for your insights about your experience and test results. To be fair if I hadn't installed this FMIC I wouldn't have posted this, the OE setup is quite nice. But I wanted to have as much air density on the intake as I could hence going for the Wagner kit.

    I didn't know about the poor OE water radiator design so I've taken the oil cooler approach and bought one. Once installed and taken on track I'll post my findings, hopefully it'll be me just realizing I'm burning more fuel as I go faster cause timing is spot on every lap
     
  23. autronix

    autronix RSM Club Member

    you're more than welcome.

    ... I have an MK3 exactly like yours. bought it last july , to find out about 1 month later that it had an engine problem.
    I was planing to rebuild the engine anyway but certainly was not happy about it ... (car is from 2016)

    I had very very high oil consumption , like 1 litre to 400km ... and no smoke.
    (I used Motul V300 that maybe burned like gas :smile: )
    I had issues on the second cylinder confirmed by carbon deposits , oil on the sparkplug , also confirmed by bore scope. compression was perfect, do....

    first approach was to replaced the valve guides without removing the head but no luck so I removed the engine and inspected all the parts ...

    I`m writing this because is related to the main subject here.

    previous owner track the car many many times and maintenance was very very poor.
    I found had coolant leakage traces at the thermostat housing , etc.
    (when I bought the car I saw those traces but got the car anyway)

    so the car was overheated big and several several times. no proper oil used and so on ....

    when I opened the engine I found the issue were the valve guides worned out and severly oil and gunk contamination of the scraper ring with second piston oil scraper ring totally seized.

    other than this engine was surprisingly ok , all parts including the bores were measured and inspected.

    I think that under "track abuse" and cooling issues the end the engine head will overheat and the first to go will be the valve guides , valves and valve springs. there are several cases reported here , too.
     
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  24. autronix

    autronix RSM Club Member

    this was the level of contamination I had due to burned out valve stem seals and worned valve guides ,
    (before and after head rebuild)

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  25. The Wagner is still a great investment if you are going to be on track.. I used to get insanely high intake temps with the stock intercooler... The Wagner keeps it much cooler.
     
  26. autronix

    autronix RSM Club Member

    the forge and the rs performance upgraded radiators are the same unit?

    is someone using them?
     
  27. so, I've recently installed a HEL/Setrab oil cooler, it comes with 80 deg sandwich thermostat.
    I haven't taken it to the track but pushing it up a mountain I see no difference in water/oil temperature, still raising to 122 C on cold wheather.

    To which I have some questions, is this expected given that the oil gauge is just a calculation from water temp and engine load and therefore I shouldn't pay attention to it?

    If oil temp is ok but water temp is red hot, would I lose performance?, or should I still be woried about something breaking if water is going at 120+ C versus oil at say 100 C ?

    I must say this a nice looking kit.

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  28. Something doesn't sound right there... You can probably ignore the RS MONITOR oil temp... But the water temp.. that shouldn't be going up to 120. When My car got to 120 (super hot day, in an 8 lap race) the dash lit up like a xmas tree.. With some rather ominous warnings and buzzers etc.. After fitting the oil cooler, the water stays under 110. Even less if its less that 20deg C outside. I don't bother looking at the oil temp. Have you got some air flow going to the new cooler? Or just relying on the air around it? Ideally you need to cut holes infront, and behind the cooler, or its just going to heat soak itself. Or fit a fan to it.
    Might pay to make sure the fans are still running? Is your car tuned? Possibly running too lean? I can't think of a time driving on the street, that I could get the temps up that high.. Only on the track
     
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  29. Is this a direct fit for the megane I’m looking into one myself
     
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  30. Exactly the same happened to me after not long owning it found it abused , just finished sorting it all out , mine had melted the tank vent pipe and some of the timing casing upon a decent inspection , I have replace literally everything bar the gear box
     
  31. I know fans and pump work fine cuz I can hear them work, and if I do some spirited driving then water gauge stays at the middle. There are no codes if I plug it to diagnostics.

    But when I ask the 110% to the machine for a long time water temp gauge reaches the top, strangely enough with no EML, or any other warning in the dash at all!! I can just keep pushing it if I want...
    Car is not tuned.. last time I took it to the dyno it was a little rich actually (11 A/F for the most part)

    I cut holes to the front, maybe I'll do the wheel arch plastic too, but wanted to know your thoughts on what's going on.

    image_jpeg (1).jpg
     
  32. I guess it can be mounted on top of the bar but I didn't try. I went for the 80 deg thermostat, and I kept the original oil/water cooler.
     
  33. autronix

    autronix RSM Club Member

    will this Forge radiator fit with the wagner intercooler?
    they claim is a direct fit but from the pictures seems it`s not.

    I also don`t trust the brand (forge ...) , item design and quality.
    looking for a proper trusted shop than can do a custom radiator.

    on the other hand the oem intercooler is from 1.9dci that makes also the coolant radiator compatible , I wonder if some radiator from the van renault master , etc can be used with minor mods , will test this also.
     
  34. This looks good
    https://jettautosport.com/refroidis...eur-aluminium-flexeo-renault-megane-3-rs.html
     
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  35. autronix

    autronix RSM Club Member

    Thank you Sir!
     

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