I'm excited to see how it turns out. I'm not going to get myself all twisted about it after seeing a pretty uninformative reveal. The new Honda civics are still too garish. Golf's all look the same to me and cupras don't look as nice as they once did either. I think we should just be grateful that Renaultsport still exists and are at least trying to do stuff. I've driven my megane the length of the country and only come across another RS 2 or 3 times in months. I lose count of number of Focus and Fiesta Sts or Golf's. At least the RS smaller sales let us stand out from the crowd.
If this is a genuinely class leading product that wins most group tests, and is in the spirit of the 2 previous generations of RS Meagnes, I'll come back in this thread and doff my cap, admitting I was wrong, but: If it's a bland, VAG chasing mk4 Clio clone, will you guys who seem to champion it, with the same lack of detail as those that dare to criticize it have, as though because it's a positive opinion it's a more acceptable one - will you come back here and admit this isn't an updated version of the mk2/mk3, but an entirely different car aimed at a different buyer? That, in fact it's boring and lessens the RS brand? Either way, everybody is entitled to their opinion and criticism of such opinion is pretty childish - debate however is to be welcomed.
I don't get the hate for the 200t. Especially the latest revisions. Brilliant wee cars and a superb chassis. Shame the "purists" can't see past the gearbox.
Absolutely. The Fiesta ST is the car of this niche, whereas the Clio 1*2 was of it's generation. Renault missed the mark, and not just because of the gearbox.
I'm ashamed to say I quite like the look of the newer marginal face lift 200 with the new headlights. Shame they're just not quite as big as the meg inside as I need the size.
For sure, a forum does need a variety of mixed opinions and some lively debate to remain vibrant. Unfortunately there seems to be a new trend for those that can't articulate an opinion on a subject to just criticise those that do. Lots of it about. As a passionate advocate of the Renaultsport brand, I'm pretty concerned that the Renault management has already decided its future and the first indication of that was with the Clio 200T. They rescued it to a certain extent with the 220T Trophy, but the cancelling of the RS16 and a shift to the Alpine maybe indicates a pared back RS agenda. Hopefully the MK4 RS Megane will indicate some sort of new commitment and re-invigoration of the brand. However, I'm not so sure even though there is still scope for a few surprises in Sept and return to previous form. All the inputs regarding 'its now about sales figures' and people now only really want a 'bland, grey and predictable product' just convieniently ignores other manufacturers being successful or at least being prepared to accept the limitations of being in a similar segment. They are already pushing the boundaries in design, performance, desirability and also most importantly, value for money. They want to sell you a product. It will be a sad day if Renault has already made that executive decision to drop the ball on the great heritage already established with the Renaultsport brand. 4 months to go.
i really don't recall anyone asking for a 'bland, grey and predictable product'? perhaps you could point me in the right direction. I do agree about certain people who seem unable to articulate. out of interest, which Renault sport model do you own? i know the question has been asked before but i think you may have forgotten to answer,i haven't seen you on any trackdays, i'm sure one of us would have recognised you, could have given us all some pointers.
The thing is, if the newer Clio is selling better than the old one, will the Renault management realise the "error" of their ways? All Renault are interested in is making money, just like any other business. If the approach of making "bland, grey and predictable products" increases their sales figures, then why on earth would they care? The older Renault Sport products were, generally, fantastic, but were also quite niche. You don't see huge numbers of RS Meganes because they weren't actually all that popular with mainstream buyers. Whether that is down to the design of the product or the way it was marketed is almost irrelevant. If the older RS products made Renault £1m and the new one made £1.1m, then they would see that as a success for their new strategy, surely? As for other manufacturers, I'm not sure I really see what you are getting at. I don't really understand which other manufacturers have been successful at producing such niche cars or are "pushing the boundaries"? Ford still made compromises with the Focus RS in order to make it a viable production car (no wide arches being a perfect example). The only case I can really think of is Honda, with the outgoing Civic Type-R. This was relatively extreme for a modern road car but, as a result, sold in small numbers. Honda seem to be changing their approach slightly, as the new car is being launched in the US, so sales figures do seem to matter to them too. It will feature more driving modes and a "comfort" setting, so I think it will be a bit less hardcore by the sounds of it, or at least have the option of being less hardcore. If the new RS Megane ends up with c.300bhp, some fancy electronic driving aids, a limited-slip diff and the option of manual or flappy paddle, all stuffed into a five-door body with a few styling tweaks and some decent equipment, plus a price point around £30k, then it will be right in the mix among the likes of the Golf R, Seat Leon Cupra etc etc. While the hardcore Renault Sport enthusiast might be disappointed by that and think it's "bland, grey and predictable", if it generates increased sales over the last RS Megane and a bigger market share, then Renault will consider it a success. The modern hot hatch buyer often also cares about boot space, fuel efficiency and putting their kids in the back. They want a car that can do everything and are willing to compromise the ultimate driving experience in order to achieve that. Provided it feels fast in a straight line, pops and bangs now and again and feels "sporty", that's enough for most people. Having come from a sporty Golf, most of my friends, many of whom are petrol heads, preferred it to the Megane. They appreciate the Megane for being more exciting but, ultimately, would choose the softer Golf, which is easier to live with every day. Renault are in the business of selling cars. The bottom line is what matters in the end. If a softer RS Megane sells in bigger numbers, that's the path they will follow and I suspect that it's the path that many car buyers would be quite happy for them to follow. They aren't too worried about the tiny niche of petrol heads who want the last word in driving dynamics, because that's not where the money is.
Sounds like you have already accepted the softer Renaultsport trend is enviable and actually a desirable approach, whilst of course you went from a Golf R to a Megane. The RS Clio has sold more because of new market penetration. So many manufactures have a halo and performance model range and they are not all connected to making a profit or increasing sales. Image, market presence, credibility and the added desirability to lesser models in the segment is so important. BMW, Audi and Honda do it well, Ford has the ST, RS and Mountune, Peugeot is moving on with Peugeot sport and what a nice value hardcore car the 208 Gti PS is, Hyundai is entering the market, Mini has been doing it successfully for years, Fiat knocks out some nice Abarth stuff, Seat does the Ring Pack Cupra etc etc You are trying to paint a picture that the hot hatch and performance market is all about sales which is incorrect. Why is Renault such a large player in Motorsport? They are not selling many F1 or Clio Cup cars. Renault has the choice to remain in the market and try to maintain its RS niche as a value for money, performance and enthusiasts choice or it can roll over and accept that other manufacturers are doing it better. It's up to Renault if they want to compete with the rivals and maintain the RS brand. We will find out soon.
My view on whether it is a good or desirable approach is irrelevant. If I wanted a softer car, surely I would have kept the Golf? I think that probably shows what kind of car I prefer. However, regardless of my personal choices, I am not unaware of the reality of the performance car market. While I accept that the role as a halo model is important, it sounds like you are assuming that ultimate performance is the key to achieving halo status, which is incorrect. Indeed, I would suggest that most of the cars you mention are "softer" than the MK3 RS Megane. In fact, with a handful of exceptions among that list, the vast majority have been criticised at one time or another for not being as sharp or focused as a Megane. This surely suggests that there is much more to it than just performance or styling. Some of those cars are soft, some are hard. Some have five doors, others have three. There are many ways to skin the halo cat. All it has to do is appeal to what people want at any given moment in time. My simple point is this: Halo or otherwise, ultimately, Renault will aim the car at where the market is. The market for C-segment hot hatches currently seems to be moving towards the path of the "all-rounder"; so five doors, big boots, multiple driver modes, auto gearboxes, turbocharging, electronic driver aids, fancy connectivity systems and the option of turning all the performance down and having a "comfort" mode are all in. Wide arches, precise-feeling, hydraulic PAS, three doors, track-biased suspension and highly compromised ride are all on their way out. Yes, Renault could produce a car that appeals to us enthusiasts but, if they can produce one that satisfies what most performance car buyers want, while allowing them to break into new markets and increase sales, why wouldn't they do that? The reality is, most people are quite happy with the "compromise" performance car. Cars like the Audi RS3, Mercedes AMG A45 and Focus RS rule the segment in terms of status because they appeal to what most "normal" people want. They offer speed, relative luxury, relative practicality, a decent noise, but also do the normal stuff like carrying kids and shopping. None of them are the last word in driving dynamics. Enthusiasts like those found on this forum are becoming a smaller and smaller part of the market, so there is little incentive to try and please us. Anyway, I have said enough. When it comes to many of the critical factors for this car that you identify, such as price and performance, we don't actually have any information yet, so it's all guesswork anyway. I am making no real judgement until I see it properly and actually know what it has to offer.
I think you are missing my key point. It's about Renaultsport maintaining an identity and keeping some core and more importantly unique values in the marketplace. Some of the manufacturers I mentioned are softer but also significantly more premium, but some aren't such as the 208, Fiesta ST or Abarth. Basic, simple drivers cars that in Fords case sell really well. Ford actually market the ST, do the deals and want to sell cars. You automatically assume that if Renault decides to just chase sales with a softer approach then they have a success. Renault doesn't have the image, cache or status to rival Audi or BMW and admittedly those manufacturers are chasing a more premium up market vehicle but their philosophy of appealing to and targeting a certain segment of buyers remains successful. They have established their market, they know it and work it while Renaultsport has lost its way. What exists in the Renault showroom right now? A lacklustre Clio 200T and a slightly better 220 Trophy that took years to appear, is too expensive and no one is really buying because the deals don't exist. Not a great success as an attempt at the 'all rounder' you mentioned. Secondhand, a nice Clio 200 is now worth more than a Clio 200T auto. For the MK4 RS Megane, why would anyone buy an RS Megane clone of a Golf GTI or Golf R? VW does better deals, has better residuals and most importantly a better image. As soon as Renault tries to chase that perceived premium image it loses its core values regarding the established Renaultsport image. Buyers flood the Ford showroom because they got great drivers cars at a great price. They aren't interested in premium materials, 7 speed autos or track suspension. Ford gave them a no-gimmick, simple drivers car with the Fiesta ST and stepped into the place where Renaultsport was so successful. One thing we do agree on is Renaultsport needs a future, I'm just not so sure it's down the VW clone route, but we will see soon. Let's hope they hit the button. I'm already sliding into the Jap scene as a back up. Good to have a bit of a debate. Beats the occasional off topic personal snipe.
not having a personal snipe, ( i assume you are sniping at me? ) just interested in which Renaultsport you have and whether you attend any trackdays, no need to be so defensive, anyone would think you didn't have a car.
One thing we certainly agree on is marketing. Renault's marketing is pretty hopeless. I was sitting in the pub the other night and mentioned the new RS Megane to a couple of petrol head friends and they had no idea about it. They didn't know anything about Monaco or anything about the launch. While Ford spent months steadily crafting the hype for the Focus RS with a series of videos and careful leaks, Renault have made a bit of a cock-up of things. They told everyone about the Clio R.S.16, but then didn't make it, while they don't seem too fussed about telling people about the car they are actually going to make. I certainly see what you're saying about a Golf clone, but I do think things are slowly heading that way a little bit, certainly in the C-segment. The current Focus ST is a bit more grown up than the last one, with five doors and a slightly softer approach. I absolutely agree that Renault missed the mark entirely with the Clio 200/220. It's not an awful car, but it's not the car that the B-segment hot hatch market wanted, while a slightly more grown-up, more practical and useable car seems to appeal to a lot of C-segment buyers in my experience. The Civic Type-R, with it's wild spoilers has a lot of critics. People seem to like things a bit more understated, certainly in my experience. I guess C-segment cars tend to attract slightly older buyers, so big wings and hard rides go out of the window in favour of child seats and Tesco. I do think you're right that Renault may struggle to break into the more premium end of the market if that's their intention, but five doors, good equipment and subtle styling seem to be the way of things for many C-segment hot hatch buyers. What does make it harder for the likes of Renault is the fact that many people now obsess over the more premium brands. A lot of people don't lust after a Ford/Renault/Vauxhall anymore, but crave a VW/Audi/BMW/Mercedes. With their better residuals, high sales figures and lease deals, they have become eminently affordable too. The crucial thing with the Megane is likely to be the price. If it can be had for £26-28k and has 300+bhp, then it could be a marvel but, if it's more like £30-32k, then I think it's going to be in for some criticism. Time will tell.
All valid points there. Regarding price for the MK4 RS, Renault have already made that mistake with the Clio 200/220T. They priced themselves out of the market and maybe felt they had a more appealing upmarket product. Finance deals were also a killer. The impression is they actually don't want to sell them. Price will be a key issue as you say, but with the Megane GT already at £26.5K they will have to adjust the whole range pricing structure to get a perceived vfm. There are a combination of issues lurking with Renaults strategy for this new MK4, but let's see how they deal with them. However, I'm still more pint half empty than half full based on what is appearing so far.
I'm interested in sunnylunn's query as it may provide context to your points. What car (s) do you currently drive?
What's your Renaultsport / hot hatch sector history? Are you in the market to replace your Kia with something a touch more dynamic?
A few strong rumours floating about that it will only have 280 bhp on release. Sort of backed by Nico mentioning '280' on that latest bit of media.
Where are the "strong rumours" originating from? What is your Renaultsport / hot hatch history? You sound like a real enthusiast, interested to find where that enthusiasm derives from.
For the uninitiated - and I apologise in advance if this isn't 100% accurate, but: Aerofoil has admitted in the recent past to not having a license or driving a car. I'm not sure if this is ever, or due to a ban or something. Now although I obviously don't think that means he shouldn't be here or that he shouldn't be allowed his opinions, I do think it's important that other members understand the basis from which a lot of these opinions and advice he posts come from. You do contribute a worthwhile opinion at times mate, and we have had our disagreements, which is fine, but you honestly don't help yourself. I think it's important some of the newcomers understand where you're coming from. You're obviously very keen and knowledgeable on certain aspects of Renaultsports and cars in general, but you do yourself no favors mate. My advice would be to just explain your situation and be done with it. I really honestly mean you no harm mate. Please forgive me this is not totally correct or wrong in any way but I'd rather say this 'to your face' than anything else buddy
there aren't any "strong rumours" its just chinese whispers, being made out to sound like fact. Be better off waiting until things have been confirmed, might not be as rubbish as its being made out to be by the google warrior.
On topic, if Renault use the 250 bhp 1.8 Alpine engine then a 280 bhp output would make sense. How that goes down with 300+ Bhp rivals would be interesting. All comes down to the power to weight for me not the headline output. Renault must trim the fat if it's 280 bhp.
Coincidently, chatted with a Renault-Nissan alliance senior finance chap yesterday, bit of a petrol head, with a GTR as his company car. The MK 4 RS came up and although he was very guarded he did say 'don't get too excited'. It was the way he said it more than what he said.
EVO have just had a punt in the new Type R. Bit of a weapon and a big step up from the old one. Bit of a challenge for Renault here. http://www.evo.co.uk/honda/civic-ty...ic-type-r-prices-specs-and-track-drive-review
Could be the best driving car in history - I'll never find out. I couldn't / wouldn't contemplate one based solely on the fact it looks absolutely horrendous (both inside and out).
Less extreme than the old one but it would still need a brave pill before being seen in it. If that rear wing was detachable and a drop-on for track downforce or uber autobahn high speed cruising type stuff then it would make a huge difference to the edgy looks. The Type R is an easy and cheap 350 bhp remap which is also a snag for the new Megane RS if Ren go for the 1.8 engine. Not so much scope for decent tuning. Less headroom. How many current Menages are still on stock power? Part of the appeal.
And you know the 1.8 doesn't have any scope how? Smaller displacement doesn't mean less tunable or maximum output. Only have to look to Fords Ecoboost lumps.
Cubic capacity is always a limitation for simple and easy tuning of a road car engine. A larger capacity engine can have the scope to up its volumetric efficiency without resort to expensive modifications.
Small engines can definitely do the goods. Quite a few Fiesta STs running 350bhp with no internal modifications. Very impressive. Anyway, it's all a bit speculative until we find out what the spec is. It's all worth asking if the new Megane is even going to be intended as a direct rival to cars like the Type-R. Is it going to be in the 300+ club, or is it intended as a rival to the Focus ST and Golf GTI, which are 250bhp and 230bhp respectively. Time will tell. I actually quite like the new Civic incidentally. I also liked the old one. It's outrageous, but I don't mind that at all. I admire Honda for having the balls to create something that looks a bit mad.
