Brilliant out of context and partial quote. Warning ! The following quote may contain words not understood by your average 4wd fan: "The Trophy will eventually understeer but hangs on doggedly with no sense that front-end washout has been engineered into the chassis to dissuade you from leaning on it properly. And as with all hot Renaults there's well telegraphed willingness to use weight transfers to pivot the car around the front axle if you finally have reached the extent of the grip." When is your next track day ?
R26 : the man who doesn't understand the most basic laws of physics, including centrifugal force (that applies to ALL cars). When is your next track day ?
So it does understeer then, glad we got that sorted! Hate to have seen that review if it was wet! Oh wait, that's right, they wouldn't have bothered due to health and safety laws. FWD is the easier to drive, glad we got that cleared up! Now you're just repeating yourself! Well and truly lost!
It does take much to confuse you. I am sure it will understeer in your hands indeed hence your need for 4wd. As the pistonheads article explained though you can get the rear end to rotate the car through trail braking (as I had pointed out) which you clearly don't understand, let alone use so we're back to the same question : when is your next track day?
So it understeers and is the right platform for average drivers like you and understeer is easy to recover from! Gotcha!
Absolutely! We all buy cars for different reasons. It's the narrow minded individuals that think we should all buy for the same reason. Not to mention the delusions of grandeur. "My car isn't capable of understeering" lol.
Again, when is your next track day ? Or are you too narrow minded to accept that other drivers can actively prevent any understeer without resorting to 4wd ? Have you looked up traction circle yet ?
What's your issue? You can make cars handle how you want. The Palmersport M4s understeer like hell, for example, which I first thought were broken ... lol Stick a load of toe out on the rear of a meg (or indeed any FWD car), add neg camber to front and rear, and have some fun with trail braking and you'll be backwards in no time The wet doesn't change how a car handles. It just reduces available grip.
No issue, other than the claim that the Megane is completely immune to understeer, which is just wrong. No doubt the cars handling characteristics can be manipulated (just like I said), just goes to show if an average driver can do it, then obviously the Megane isn't the pinnacle of driving skill Mr Frog has deluded himself to.
Good review here about how VW achieved the (dubious) FWD Ring record with the FWD Golf Clubsport S and how they tuned the chassis to negate understeer. Also, and this would obviously be lost on the average 4WD owner, how weight and chassis balance was such an important part in achieving a fast lap time. VW also know a fat 4WD Golf R couldn't achieve a similar time with similar mods, and more importantly, so do Ford with the Focus RS as they won't declare a Ring time for it even though it has been hammering the circuit during development. Link: http://www.evo.co.uk/hot-hatchback/...eview-two-seat-golf-too-hardcore-for-the-road
Sorry I was away - when is your next track day ? I'll be at Spa 21/07, DN15 Ring 22/07, Bedford 02/08, Clastres early Sept, date TBC. Clastres would be free for you as we're hiring it privately. I tell you what : I show you how I can prevent my Meg to understeer on ANY corners past 10/10ths on ANY of those circuits if you show me how much more skilled you are than me as a track pedaler : how fair is that ? This is a friendly and honest challenge - surely you're a seasoned track day driver so that should be easy (for the avoidance of doubt I am not being sarcastic) - I'll get you a case of beer if the Meg understeers anywhere rather than rear lat grip being breached first.
Wish I could make some of those. The Meg will understeer for sure - it has to! I mean for goodness sake, the commentary during the BTCC during Croft said that they had just come from Snetterton where the RWD cars have an advantage because of the infield corners and the FWD cars can't corner as quickly. Opposite is true of the long, fast corners at Croft where the FWD cars could shine Accept it and move on - if there was one design that was better than all the others in any given scenario, there would only be one design
Neil, the WSR BMW had better TRACTION, not lateral grip, hence its advantage in tight radius corners. I have said since the start that thinking that the Megane understeers because it's FWD is only true if you confuse lat grip and traction, which most road drivers do (that's not a judgement of value). They then think that which wheels are driven determines if a car understeers or oversteers, which as you know is wrong at least up to the apex. Think Honda DC2 or DC5. Set up determines that. Hence my M135i understeering for Germany until I put 2 deg of front neg camber. Surely it's pretty simple : you're off the throttle up to the apex so it doesn't matter which wheels are driven. And up to that point the heavier car will understeer before the lighter car (ie the 1600kgs car has less inherent lat grip than the 1370kgs car, all things being equal), that's basic physics (although I admit totally counter intuitive). Hence my comment that preventing ANY understeer in the Megane is totally possible (I have done it and seen done countless times on track, wet or dry) by trail braking up to the point where the rear wheels lose lateral grip, therefore rotating the car as per the EVO article using basic weight transfer technique. I wouldn't advise this on the road hence R26 not really grasping any of this as he doesn't do track driving (nothing wrong with that btw) but getting totally defensive. The 4wd car may well claw back some (if not all) of that deficit in the traction zone (where its weight now helps) where the Megane driver will have to be more patient. Is any of the above wrong or difficult to understand ? Lat grip is inversely proportional to static mass Traction is proportional to static mass Weight transfer, technique and set up make all the difference Unless the 3 lines above are understood, accepted and experienced, the conversation is futile. 4wd marketing is superb as it flatters the driver. This is not posturing on my part as I have already said I am an average to poor track driver compared to most. What happened to Audi in BTCC all those years ago is a clear demonstration of 4wd pros and cons. But then we're into understanding minimum weight regulations...another challenge !
Wow, this is just too much fun. Bite bite bite, boy do you bite. So let's just recap, the Megane understeers. Gotcha. Oh that's a truly lovely list of places you're going to visit, sadly I've looked high and low, but I'm struggling to find any interest. Oh and remember, if you can't take it, don't give it. Peace out brother!
I don't really bite, I am a grown up. On the other hand, I find experienced based conversations about car dynamics absolutely fascinating. Each to their own. Track driving and road driving are clearly different environments populated by different people.
Ignoring the chump above Nick, as that's a lost cause My understanding is thus: - engineering definition of understeer is one whereby if you drive in a constant circle at a steady speed, once the wheel being turned doesn't result in the turning circle tightening, you have reached the available limit of grip to turn - under acceleration, a tyre can grip to accelerate or grip to turn. It has a finite amount of grip available to it, so you're either turning, accelerating, or a mixture of both However - crucially, because there is acceleration in the mix after the point in the corner you have braked to, the available grip to turn is therefore more limited On a long, slow hairpin the technique you have described above will not work because there will be period whereby you have finished trail braking, lifted and used the momentum of the car to transfer weight to the front (and side that is outside of the corner), and the rear is turning as you say However, that rear turning action continues to slow the car down - it's friction, right, so it'll always be slowing unless you're accelerating. You will then need to accelerate out of the corner In a long, slow corner, like a hairpin, you will need to be turning and accelerating. Thus you will understeer - and be slower than a RWD equivalent My issues with these kind of corners are: 1. I find it a nightmare to get the rear tyres at the right temperature. Too cold and the rear goes light and slides, so you have to correct it and thus lose speed 2. Too warm and the rear will not turn as much as you need it to, thus you are now in a situation where you needed to go deeper into the corner under braking So even assuming you have the optimum balance of tyre temp, braking point, and slip angle with the tyres.... Because of the nature of the corner, you will not yet be at the apex and you will either understeer or oversteer When I went to see Andy Walsh many moons ago (I was driving RWD) he said the best technique was simply to lift off the pedals between braking and accelerating to get round the corner. If you need to accelerate, you have taken too much speed off. If you need to brake, you've gone in too hot But... Point remains, that once you're through the corner and start accelerating, in long corners you will not be able to avoid understeer because you will be using the available grip to accelerate and not to turn The RWD boys can be on the power sooner and use the fact they can oversteer to their advantage I guess it's possible, in theory, not to understeer or oversteer at all. However you'll be going slowly!
Some good discussion, and if i may play devil’s advocate, I feel you are both correct but just looking at it from different levels of handling extremes. It’s possible to drive with an appropriately set up car and negate understeer but the difference of opinion here seems to come when you get into the more extreme transitions into understeer, oversteer or a combination of both. How that effects lap time is just too complicated to distil into simple one off examples that apply in all situations. For example, the low grip, powered and off camber sweeping corner can lead to understeer in a typically safe (road) set-up FWD, it’s just how you manage it, or minimise it for the best lap time. Adjusting a chassis set up can alter how ‘pointy’ the car is, but ultimately you still end up with the extreme variety of handling traits. How much you need to dip into the slip available is too complex in the real world to nail with a paragraph of analysis, and as French Nick pointed out, a 4WD isn’t always playing to it's traction advantages, and off throttle is just a heavier version of a 2WD equivalent. It’s a bit like the perceived definitions of ‘neutral handling’ or ‘handling balance’. In pure terms, a car having neutral handling will lose traction from the front and rear simultaneously, but the reality is you can only define that as a handling bias because it’s never a fixed and predictable constant.
We need a video or your forthcoming trackday. Pick mine up next week. I'll update you on the panel gap correction via pm!
I agree with you about the overall adhesion potential being shared by the longitudinal and lateral axis, hence me inviting the chump to look into traction circle to see that 4wd doesn't generate adhesion but merely optimises it and does the tractive modulation for your average road "top of the wheel holding" point and squirter (while adding 200kgs of lateral grip reducing mass). All your stuff about RWD is particularly true as the Megane is somewhat a departure for me, my last front driver being more than 20 years ago. I guess I chose the Megane as I couldn't find a more track ready new car under £20k. Jonny I will take a video at Spa as the Ring is a 9/10th track for me even on DN. The target at Spa will be under 3:00 with no understeer - and then Chump can try and beat that in the FRS
Ah dont go for times, don't want it resulting in an accident plus you can't ever win - the conditions on a given day play a major factor in performance, particularly with turbo cars. Like you, I prefer RWD. I chose Megane over Cayman S for every day practicality, but do prefer RWD if it was just a case of having a fun track car. The Meg is also much safer at the ring to lap quickly!
Until you oversteer at Schwedenkreuz of course ;-) A Megane that oversteers ? I didn't want to introduce this as it would terminally confuse our resident road going chump...
That's not oversteer though, that's natural selection 1. Stay right, not left 2. Don't lift before or during turn in, get the braking done pre-turn and after the brow 3. Don't carry in so much speed you need to come off the power All you're doing is braking from a higher speed for Aremburg 115mph vmin is all you need through SX
I am very conservative there indeed, really not worth it anyway as it just makes the next braking point hairier. The risk/reward ratio is poor... I have the same approach at MHM...
Link to the original printed Autocar article on just how good the Megane is: http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/2016-renault-mégane-rs-275-cup-s-why-it-marks-end-era
