Some tasty mods, some a waste of money. That’s a lot of £££ for a 5 year old 2 seat FWD track orientated car with 33,000 miles on it. You see a lot of this modified stuff on track days not being driven to its full capability. Full ad: http://www.pistonheads.com/classifi...-330bhp--15-000-of-upgrades--2011/5934226?v=c
This was for sale aaaages ago but it's way more modded now. Nice car. Those tyres are £800 alone, cae shifter £700, that's over £1k right there. It also has buttons which are over £2.5k. It's a bit pricey but I do think people forget how much it actually costs to build a track car. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That was my mates car, been out in it a few times, he bought it from them and has just sold it back to them, it's absolutely mint
That's more show car than track car though. It's not really useful as an everyday road car now and not really modified as a budget conscious and effective track car. Nitrous, top mounts, tyres and brakes are useful, the rest adds nothing significant. I'm surprised there's not a picnic set under the rear netting.
Does the Megane really need all this for track? Imo, no. So capable already. However, won't stop me doing a few choice bits to mine.
Sorry I totally disagree. Rollcage?? This added loads of structural rigidity and therefore improves handling. Just because he has a big budget doesn't mean it's not an effective track car[emoji848] Also everything you've listed is like the basic list of best mods to improve s cars overall performance. Brakes, suspension, tyres, cage. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
A Roll Cage doesn't massively improve handling, but it does add significant weight. Plus it's a trackday car, not going racing. If someone is that worried about safety, where's the plumbed in Fire Ext and external CB? Don't get me wrong, anyone can spend what they like, do what they like, but get a decent 250 Cup with Recaros and you can get just an effective track car for much less money by choosing the mods that make a capable track car rather than one that just looks like one. They would also have some budget left to get tuition on how to drive properly as that sort of car generally tends to be bought by people who aren't dialled into what is important for a capable track cars overall performance. Drop that one into any respected Motorsport team, they would have a quiet chuckle and the first thing they would do is spend a day pulling out the tailored trims etc and 100 kg of unnecessary weight. DIY and it would cost nothing.
You've obviously never been or driven a car with a full cage that's welded in properly. It HUGELY improved handling. [emoji85] Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Depends on how rigid the chassis is to start with - most road cars nowadays at between 25k to 30k newtons per degree of tors rigidity do not yield a "HUGE" handling improvement with a cage. It's very rare to be able to compare an identical car with and without a roll cage anyway, too many other factors. I have driven cage equipped cars that were poor on track and cage less cars that were pretty good, including the Megane.
Maybe I'll put it another way, if you are looking to improve a 250's circuit handling or lap time for trackdays, a roll cage is not a real player. A full weld-in also adds significant weight, that degrades handling.
Of course there are loads of factors involved, but ultimately a properly welded in cage will yeild handling improvements over a non cage equipped vehicle. There is no arguing it. Why on earth do you think properly built race cars have them other than the obvious safety reason. Anyway without getting into a nonsensical protracted debate on cages, branding the above car as a show car is idiotic, as it clearly has been modified in a way that's designed to improve the performance in terms of both speed and handling. Just because a menial budget has not been observed does not mean that it's in any way less effective than a more budget focused car. It just sounds like you're butt hurt critiquing the guys choice of modifications and extensive budget. That's all I'm saying the matter! [emoji846] Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I suppose the easiest way to confirm the benefits the cage makes to the handling on track would be to carry out a back to back test with the same car with and without the cage.
Not sure if you're talking to me here ? I am not arguing that a roll cage has benefits on a road car for track days. It will reduce flex and allow the suspension kinematics to operate with less interference and keep the geo more stable under load. Slight issue is that those kinematics were designed for the pre-roll cage flex so unless you entirely change them the benefit will be very small. But my main point is how you overstate the benefits for track day use which are non-competitive non timed events by using words like "massively" and "hugely". The benefits would possibly be measurable on a race car, but not on a road car. On a race car, the chassis would be seam welded to start with anyway so even then, the roll cage is essentially there for safety. In other words, a chassis with 30,000 NM of torsional rigidity per degree like I assume the Megane is, will have reached a high point in the diminishing return curve prior to the cage, which will be of marginal benefit to handling, even if you can ignore the added weight and the higher COG.
I do agree with most of what you're saying but unless you can measure the rigidity of the shell (you use the word assume so I take it you don't actually know for sure) you can't simply state that it has no benefit that's all I'm saying. I was more talking about the show car comment above anyway.... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I never said there were no benefits - just that they were not huge nor massive. I am pretty sure the Meg is VERY rigid but no I have no measurements, although I could ask people at the Régie.
Um... no, sorry. That's horse manure and anyone making claims about cage being fitted for handling needs their head examined as there are an infinite amount of things to do before trying to make a cage "improve" handling. Few things: 1. That's not a "proper" cage. The fronts stop before the dash, as a most basic example, whereas full cages often rip straight through it and go along the A pillar Take a look at some of the racing cars - they're a complete nightmare to get in/out of because of all the cross bars in the doors also. It's also bolted together. C'mon. So in terms of how much difference that particular design is making... I'd hazard a guess it's making very little, if any difference. 2. Structural rigidity (assuming it is added) does NOT equal "improved handling" in every instance. The car is setup in a certain way, so if you change it, you'll need to make other adjustments to compensate. Making something stiffer doesn't "improve" anything - it just makes it stiffer. As a result of the extra stiffness, you will get some changes to the way it handles but to make that flow through to faster times through a corners you need to make other compensations. Example - a stiffer chassis translates its weight more quickly, meaning you need to change damping settings, the kind of tyres you use, and geo... Simply making something stiff and doing nothing else will just change what the car does, but not necessarily improve a thing. 3. The Megane (and indeed a lot of modern sports cars) are hardly cars that have a lot of chassis movement. A strut brace isn't even worth it. Gains from 'extra rigidity' are going to be minimal given the amount of spend required 4. The extra weight of the cage, particularly given it changes the CoG, is a drawback - not a benefit A cage is a **safety addition** and, when the car is being used in racing situations, is a necessary addition along with the right harnesses and so forth.
[emoji42] No point arguing about it. Yes you make some good points, but even a properly bolted in safety devices cage (bolted to welded in plates) makes a significant difference. I know so because I've got one in my Rallye. Proper weld in cage where it penetrates the bulkhead is even better again. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm not arguing mate - i'm saying how it works. As I've said, "making a difference" does not correlate to "improved handling". And yes, the difference in a Rallye will be notable because it's an older car. A full cage in a GT3 RS far less so because it's a stiff, low-slung chassis with massive tyres and aggressive geo already. But, in the case of both, you don't just cage it and become instantly quicker in corners. Sunny - he could beast past Lewis Hamilton on track, but my point is nothing about the car or the owner (neither of which I have an opinion about), but simply what caging a car does to it and to make a statement about that cage, in a Megane, improving handling is a false statement to make
Maybe because the Rallye flexes like a limp penis without it ? Hence my initial post. When it comes to automotive engineering matters, there is no black and white but shades of grey. Even if you can ignore placebo and counterintuitiveness, things are about 100 times more complicated than your average enthusiast realises and the answer can change several times within the same thought process. On this occasion things are far closer to marginal than "significant", "massive" and "huge".
I really want that CAE shifter! http://img.pistonheads.com.s3-eu-we...sport-megane-renaultsport-lux-S2446438-11.jpg The car does seem a bit expensive, even when I add up all the things I would have to add to mine to bring it up to the same level. Its nice though, like almost everything he has done. On the cage side of things I think it looks great but I would be interested to know how much this car now weighs. Also, pushing that sport mode button must be a pain in the arse, maybe he has it mapped to be on all the time?
The roll cage itself will have added around 40kg I guess but other bits were removed of course, like the rear seats.
Out of interest do you guys have a track car at all? Or built one and experimented with changes that are brought about by modifications? This isn't meant in an argumentative vein either I'm genuinely interested. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I work in motorsport so that kind of stuff is like the ABC, enough knowledgeable people around me to get the basics right a long time ago. I think your experience with the Rally has led you to the conclusion that the same benefits were available in all cases. I remember when the MK1 Cayman came out : +100% torsional rigidity resulted in zero handling difference outside placebo. Very stiff is stiff enough.
Define 'track car'... but yes. Have had standard, immensely capable cars out the box that fly past anything else on track (Supercharged Atom, GT2 RS), and have also built things from ground up (M3 CSL, Evo race car) I'd expect sub 8 BTG with my Megane and use it on track though I want it to be more of a 'ring car - it's not caged and I have no chassis upgrades planned (nor think they're needed). Only thing I've done chassis wise is Superpro bushes all round and Superpro front ARB. Bought the car standard bar a milltek exhaust and remap. I found it a bit 'meh' power-wise and wanted something with more guts Car is now 350/350, hybrid turbo, ITG intake, pro-alloy cooler, oil cooler, milltek exhaust, rear seat delete, uprated brakes (lines, fluid, 2 piece discs).... soon to have intrax 1K2 suspension, titanium exhaust but it's also a daily driver and has custom sound system, keeping all air con etc. As it's still a bit weak on track at the upper end of rev range, I'm weighing up options of forging and taking to 425/375ish level and that'll need clutch and fuelling looking at
Interesting. It's fair to say the chassis flexes a lot on the Rallye so yes the cage was a huge benefit. Generally though, unless the chassis is ultra stiff as per your example above, I still maintain that adding a cage will be of benefit to the handling. Does make me wonder why half of the automotive community got so butt hurt by the cage in the civic type r that cracked the ring record. Going by the opinions on here it would be of zero benefit therefore not providing any unfair advantage to the cars lap time. Discuss![emoji14] Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Because anyone being 'butt hurt' by a car being quicker round a track is probably a fan boi of the previous record holder, drives their car around the UK and thinks 'giving it large' off a roundabout equates to a race, is so heavily indebted and invested into their car that the idea of something being quicker upsets them, and thus will grasp at anything to try and undermine the effort of another manufacturer Whereas the rest simply enjoy whatever car they have and know that if they wanted to go quickly round the ring, they'd be in a GT3 RS - hence why you see a million of 'em when you go The amount of Facebook posts I see where someone thinks they were quicker than car X, where car X is *obviously* faster than a Megane (no matter what mods you have done to it) is ridiculous. "I saw off a Focus, they're rubbish". Of course you did. And the race series you were competing in was... the M40 40m dash?
I don't even use Facebook thankfully, but yes I do know what you mean. I do still disagree with you both re handling, obviously it's dependant on the car itself but all the knowledge on technical forums and through my own personal experience in different cars with cages, largely correlates chassis rigidity with improved handling. Only last comment I would make regarding the stiffness of the Meg, why do the door seals creak during motion if it's so stiff, that alone indicates movement in the bodywork so a cage in this case would be of benefit to the handling. Anyways that's me tapping out of this debate now I cannot take any more haha.. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Lewis, you shouldn't take things so defensively. Again, most modern cars are around 25k newtons even 5 doors hatches, that IS all you need to know. I am not trying to be funny here or unpleasant, this stuff is very very basic yet you've convinced yourself of something that is literally quite the opposite to what a 1st year mechanical engineering student will be expected to accept within a few seconds and all this based on your experience with the Rallye. Or "all the knowledge on technical forums". Sod that knowledge, speak to an engineer and he will confirm within seconds.
Not being defensive at all dude, all good here. I'm not a motorsport engineer so have no technical qualifications (I assume you do as Neil above) but like I said I'm basing it on personal experience born out of time spent on my own car and others with similar modifications. I understand what you are saying about the technical measurements of the chassis structure, but I've found that adding a decent spec cage where at a basic level it's bolted to welded in plates at key chassis points is an effective upgrade measurable by improved lap times and overall feel. Actually you guys are the first people I've encountered who argue the contrary. It's a little tiresome as I feel no matter what point I make an attempt would be made to disprove it hence my decision to tap out! Furthermore the tone is somewhat patronising so I'd rather not debate the matter further. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Discuss......With the Civic Type R Ring lap, Honda removed the back seats and heavy Air Con to compensate for the extra Cage weight.
Anyway, back to my original point about this car, if you know about what makes a good track car, you wouldn't pay £23K for this. Much, much cheaper and more effective to get a 250 Cup donor car and convert to a more track focused spec. Plus you could convert the donor 250 back to full or partial OEM spec as required at a later date. Who does it appeal to? The sort of person that is willing to pay a big premium for a compromised 2 seat only car that is not as fully honed for track work as it could be for the budget blown on it, but gets more of a buzz from some uninitiated laymen getting all excited over their shiny shifter.
Your original point is that it was a show car which was complete nonsense[emoji848] We all agree it's over priced but it's still a good car and will most likely be extremely fast on a track which is obviously what it's designed for. Someone will pay the money for it. I sold my Clio to Ktec and they added about £2k on it. They're a business though so what do you expect. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Nope, I said it was more about a show car than a track car, some tasty mods, some a waste of money. You also can't just ignore that price. The price is based on the money pumped into it regardless of who is selling it. Regarding being 'extremely fast on track which is obviously what it's designed for' misses the main point, which is it isn't just designed for the track, a large amount of money and design has been spent on making it look good in the paddock with the door open. Compromised build.
