250 Brake cooling ducts

Discussion in 'Suspension, Brakes, Wheels & Tyres section' started by Scott Lewis Chambers, Nov 4, 2020.

  1. I've been thinking about running ducting through to the wheel arches to help with brake cooling. My 182 had cooling through the fog lights that fed to the arches.

    But the megane doesn't really have any points that can be fed. I think the gaps bellow the daylight lights might be good or I've been thinking about fabricating a splitter to drive air into ducting via the breaks. This is a touch down the road when I fit new breaks and springs and ready for 2021 track days.

    Any ideas or better ways of doing it or thoughts would be helpful.
    Here's a rough rough sketch of what I've thought about.

    I apologise about the bad sketching.

    IMG_20201104_195922.jpg
     
  2. Hi Scott
    I have just fitted my cooling ducts, was going to wait to see how they worked out at Silverstone on the 27th, but that has now been cancelled.

    I was going to do a thread on it if it worked, it should as it flows air right into the back of the disc.
     
  3. Yea most track days are a wash this year tbh so I've sat down and been planing.

    Where did you fit them? I was thinking about next to Intercooler but feel like that's a really tight squeeze and not sure air will really hit it.

    I want to make a prototype/mock up splitter.

    Where did you exit the ducting. I'm thinking at an angle to hit the angle and vents of the discs
     
  4. I haven't used any aperture on the bumper :laughing::laughing:
    I fitted some scoops under the engine on the undertray, then ran a pipe right into the back of the disc's by the abs sensor.

    The pipe is about 400mm long, so very short, i have just looked to see if i had any pics and i can't find them, so i'm going to have to take them again.
     
  5. Would be good to get some of the paint the f1 teams use to monitor the airflow! Slap some around and in the duct entry point and see if it's flowing.

    I'm always dubious about these kind of mods as I imagine air would stall a lot of the time and have little to no effectiveness.
     
    Scott Lewis Chambers likes this.
  6. I was wondering about the amount of air going through as well, would like something to measure it but what :anguished:
     
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  7. I've got a cordless leaf blower, think it does about 50mph so not great, but I was thinking of sticking some small strips of paper to areas of interest and seeing how the paper reacts to the air flow.

    Pretty primitive, but would give an indication I suppose!
     
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  8. I did that with the bonnet, was told that the air goes down the back of the bonnet if the rubber is removed, tied a couple of pieces of cloth to the panel behind, at 30mph they disappeared and stayed there well past a ton
     
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  9. 3e7c7d9e963322ad6820640a958d1551.jpg
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  10. It looks great, but I honestly think it's doing nothing as the air would just be stalling.
     
  11. I've thought about this. In general air flows at the car. So at its lowest point is where the air splits between going under the car and hitting the car, the current curves of the 250 bumper is designed to push air round the car and keep the front and back end planted. So I think enough air would be pushed through ducts low enough down. Anything higher than Intercooler height or the impact bar might have little effect

    Interesting. Wonder how they discovered that?

    This was my other option going on past the Intercooler. There is room to do it. I'm just unsure how much air would pass through. Is the 265 bumper different and wider? The 250 front grill is basically the Intercooler no real room for any air to get round it.

    I'm leaning more to a bottom fed solution at the moment. Want to try make a mockup at some point. Find away to check to see if air will pass continuously rather than stalling.
     
  12. Don't shoot me for this, but I'm actually toying with the idea of the stupid bonnet raisers to let some air into the back of the engine to help with cooling the turbo etc!
     
    Scott Lewis Chambers likes this.
  13. I wouldn't shoot you as I've been toying with the same thing. I'm tempted to see how much a turbo blanket/wrap thingy helps but bonnet rasers would be a much cheaper option if it worked
     
  14. I'm looking at combining the two tbh.

    Wrapping everything will definitely help with engine bay temps, but if you can get more airflow in there it should massively reduce overall temps. Popping the bonnet after a few hot laps is pretty intense, anything that can reduce temps is worth looking at imo!
     
  15. Bottom fed would surely be the best, in theory you'd have a lot of air being forced underneath the car so if you could channel that with very little bends, you'd possibly be on to a winner.
     
  16. I've wrapped the fuel line and main turbo inlet that feeds to the silicon bend into the turbo in heat tap. I'll find a picture. I think it's helped a bit. But its obviously not massive change. I know what you mean though. Im always keeping an eye on the temp gauge. I'm not a fan how hot the engine gets on a motorway drive let alone track days.

    Yea. I'm just debating at this point where to put it. I'm not sure I have the guts to chop up the current bumper to accommodate the feeds in the splitter.
     
  17. Nick

    Nick RSM Moderator

    If your on Instagram, there's more install pics on the puretrack page
     
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  18. It's pretty, but with all that pipe and bends, can we really expect much airflow? I guess it depends on whether or not theres a vacuum created at the pipes outlet, if so, then it would be assumed that the air is getting sucked through as well as pushed and could be effective?

    To get really technical your need a wind tunnel and some heat sensors pointed at the discs to monitor things.
     
    Scott Lewis Chambers likes this.
  19. I'll have a look. I just wana know how they cut the holes and kept the criss-cross

    Tbh I'm thinking I might skip the vents and fit the ducting from those points under the blades and keep minimal bends. Just use some ct1 silicone stuff on it. Tht hold it nicely :smiley:

    I wonder the same alot of beds. They use 2ply ducting mind rather than cheap ol ebay specials. I think screw fix or tools station sells it so might be able to pick a lump up from them.
     
  20. Nick

    Nick RSM Moderator

    If you buy a set you do get really detailed install instructions

    The kits well tested, he's always on track in his meg
     
    Scott Lewis Chambers likes this.
  21. Yea
    Yea I've seen him on Instagram a few times. I like his splitter alot.
     
    Nick likes this.
  22. Seat of your pants testing is great, but I like to see some raw data! :tearsofjoy:

    Personally, I'd go with a polyurethane rather than ct1, I used ct1 to stick my polycarbonate windows in and its degraded and failing where the polyurethane is perfect.
     
    Scott Lewis Chambers likes this.
  23. I'm the same need to see a graph.

    Okay ill do poly in stead then.
     
  24. From what I can gather, the wheel arch area can have high pressure which can lead to various problems from efficiency to lift.

    A lot of the modern performance stuff (m4 as an example) have vents in the fenders to relieve the pressure. Others have vents in the liners themselves to remove that hot dirty air from the wheels/brakes.

    I think what I'm trying to say is these pipes from the front bumper (or anywhere) to the wheel arches are shit. Unless you can get the air removed from the arches, you're wasting your time trying to channel more air into it.

    That's my understanding so far anyway.:tearsofjoy:
     
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  25. I wonder if you could put air into the arches and then another into the arches side. Think it's too much faf if I'm honest. It will only be a clubsport setup. So I can't say I'll be overly concerned.
     
  26. Yeah I think it's a waste of time tbh.

    In fact, if the pressure at the exit point (wheel arch area) is higher than the intake (front bumper area) you may find that the airflow is opposite to the intended direction and creates even more drag? Damn I wish I listened in school and had the knowledge to understand this more!!
     
  27. There is certainly pressure generated in the wheel arch from a rotating wheel. However, there is also a lot of space for that pressure to be extracted. Air coming into the ducts at 100 km/h+ and directed at the calliper (even with the bends) is more than enough force to overcome the pressure generated in the wheel arch.
     
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  28. I think the air would've already stalled at the pipe intake before you reach those speeds.

    Think how turbulent and dirty the air is going to be at that point of the bumper, I cant imagine it'll cleanly blow through a tiny intake, through 3 or 4 bends and then have enough pressure to overcome the pressure in the wheel arch.

    I could however, be completely wrong.
     
  29. I found some 3" ducting I had from the 182, Brought some 3" sub things from flea Bay and decided to see what I could come up with. I had the front bumper off and couldn't see how it could work. On the passengers side it's easy it's basically straight but the drivers side has the windscreen bottle which is stupidly big by the way.. So I decided to bodge it :smiley:
    IMG_20201203_151843.jpg IMG_20201203_155151.jpg IMG_20201203_145452.jpg IMG_20201203_151835.jpg

    I don't think this would ever work on a car with coilovers but as mine are only on h&r springs I'm not concerned. And theres only 1 real bend. It's also alot shorter than the kits I've seen only a 500mm pipe. It's 2ply for extra freshness. A fair chunk of air passes under so for a car that will only see track days 3 times a year or more I think that setup is perfectly fine for now. Maybe when I grow some balls and fancy cutting bits out of my arch and bumper I will make a different setup. But I like this one looks quite tidy too.

    I might have to turn the jubilee clips up abit. Just in case I hit a speed hump and clonk it off. Doubt it heavily though.
     
  30. I also wanted something that wouldn't be in the way if the front bumper had to come of ever. Cos I know I'd completely sodding forget and yank it.
     
  31. -Jamie-

    -Jamie- RSM Moderator

    They work


    Otherwise BMW wouldn't of done that exact thing on their GT4 racecar [emoji23]


    I can also vouch for it working in the Megane. Brake temps were considerably cooler with the ducts open vs blocked off.
     
    Scott Lewis Chambers likes this.
  32. To think the gt4 race car hasn't got some trick aero package that integrates all cooling systems is a little naive! :tearsofjoy:

    I'd just love to see some data on the matter, or at least some f1 style paint that highlights the airflow!

    If I ever get mine back on the road I'll be sure to do some testing!
     
    Scott Lewis Chambers likes this.
  33. Tbh I agree. I feel like BMW should have build something into the bodywork to produce air flow to the brakes and other mechanical parts of the car that get hot. I'm interested to see how mine helps. I might close up one of the holes and get some of those brembo brake heat stickers and see what happens. I'd really like some proper data though.

    I have a felling my setup won't be "as" effective as the kits sold but should still provide some cooling. Air does pass under the car. Just need a good track day test.
     
  34. Ironically, I used the m4 as an example of a modern performance car that has a way to release pressure in the arch area using vents, this is no doubt technology learnt from the race cars they run.

    Looks like you have to manufacture your own visualization paint which will be fun!
     
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  35. -Jamie-

    -Jamie- RSM Moderator

    It's literally a splitter with an air intake/duct on it, no trick aero package [emoji23]


    Ill try find the spreadsheet I had but disc and caliper temps were a good bit cooler with the ducts in place.

    If they didn't do much then pretty much every serious trackcar is just wasting its time having ducting
     
    Scott Lewis Chambers likes this.
  36. I can guarantee it'll have more than just a splitter. A lot of aero tweaks can be virtually invisible to the naked eye! Look at formula one, the cars at the back of the grid look almost identical to those at the front yet can be hugely different in performance.

    Spread sheets would be great to see, but unless it's back to back testing the results can't be taken that seriously!

    I genuinely would love for this to work, it's a great addition for little outlay, but I am dubious. :laughing:
     
  37. :tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy:

    Looks like there is a pretty big splitter, two intakes to a purpose built disc surround and as I've previously shown, the m4 has vents in the arches and liners to relieve the high pressure that builds there!

    It looks as though the disc surrounds will also be designed to push air out of the wheel rather than allow the air to be sucked into the wheel that a conventional set up would rely on.

    It too can be yours for only a little under £2k!
     

    Attached Files:

  38. -Jamie-

    -Jamie- RSM Moderator

    Not on the E92, and the reason I know this is because I ha e it on mine [emoji23]

    Of course it's back to back, on the same day at the same circuit. Otherwise you may as well measure temps when you get home


    The GT4 has a splitter with intakes and a back plate to feed the back of thr disc. Literally the same thing that people do to Meganes and various other things lol


    If you're thsy interested you should post on the track time Facebook group, you'll have a good response there and no doubt there's someone that's went to as much trouble as sticking tufts of wool on etc [emoji23]
     

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