R26 Ducting for brakes

it'll be close, its pretty awkward to get ducting to the right area, let us know how you get on, pics etc, something i'd like to have a go at soon.

 

hope these pictures help

 

What size ducting pipe you using?

 

Just for track days ducting cooling is not needed as its not endurance racing where you can hit a critical brake temperature over time.

Plus there are other more easier and simple ways to manage brake temps on track days. In many ways sometimes people mod to solve a problem that isnt one.

Open to hear other people's views.

 

@JamesBryan

 

around 69mm - 70mm
i also have the 89mm - 70mm reducer they fit the fog light hole perfectly

 

How close is the ducting to the belt there?

 

Have you ever driven an R26 on track?

I over-heated Mintex M1144 pads with one hard stop in my first session last week, at the end of 2 sessions doing my check over the car the RBF660 fluid had boiled out of the reservoir. These cars badly need some form of cooling to the brakes for track work, as stock they are pretty appalling compared to my previous experience with Porsche's that tend to be pretty good on factory brakes.

 

I am not sure what you are doing but, i have run DS 1.11, CL6 and CL8's on standard 312mm disc's andCL6, CL8 and PF Zrated on my 340mm set up and not once have i ever had brake fade, i run RBF600 and that fluid has been in the car now for a good 18 months, 16+ trackdays, not including the Ring for 18 laps and about 8000 road miles.
Maybe you need to do another fluid change as you might have not got all of the old fluid out.

 

Not quite sure what you mean by 'fluid had boiled out of the reservoir'. Cooking RBF660 takes some doing. Plus the 1144 isn't a great trackpad.

 

i guess the brake overheat issue is quite track orientated, driving style also play a major role. i did with my 205Mi16 (AP Racing 5200, PRF600 and without any ducting) in summer day (30+ degree celsius) for about 13 laps without showing any sign of fade but in the same track in spring i could only do 3 laps with my R26R without fading.

in another track my friend did well over 20 laps without fading with his Clio3.0 (stock) and i could only do about 8 laps with ducting, but i did about 1:38 and he did about 1:50. another friend did 1:34 in a stock R26R also without any fading after so many faster than mine laps.

i am pretty sure my driving is really bad but at least the ducting helps before i can improve / learn how to spot the perfect brake point and braking technique.

 

cannot remember, but it's about 2~3" away from the caliper. you can't do too close to that otherwise the hose will foul the caliper while turning, can you?

 

Yeah it probably would.

What is it like when the wheel is on. Is there clearance on full lock when the wheel turns and goes into the arch, does it clear the ducting?

 

full lock is ok. as this is my weekend and trackday car, so i added some lock wire to secure the hose to avoid any cable tie fail

 

Sounds good.

 

oh sorry, i mis-read belt to bell.

it is very close, less than 1" i am afraid. it is why you see a strip of aluminium to hold it down there

 

No problems i take it? As the belt does move a fair bit as the tensioner tries to keep up and remove the slack.

 

of course, it is still working fine after a few years

 

Different pad materials transfer heat differently into the callipers and hence the braking system, I think this is part of the problem with the M1144 pads everything just gets ridiculously hot. A small amount (very) of the brake fluid had passed the cap on the reservoir and was running down the outside of the reservoir and dripping down in the engine bay. Seen that on my race car but only at tracks like Silverstone with the big stops and multiple hard stops every lap, on that car PFC 01 pads would overheat towards the end of a race but Pagid yellows wouldn't hence why I used those, a friend also found that Castrol SFR was the only fluid that would always stand up to the heat and never come back out of the reservoir past the cap. This is what I mean by boiling the fluid out of the reservoir. Interestingly I didn't see this brake fluid issue with standard pads in the Megane.

I have a couple of bottles of RBF660 and DS1.11 pads to try next but will be obviously looking to run the fluid through each caliper in its bleed. The car had 3 bottles of RBF660 put into her 18 months ago so shouldn't have any old fluid but granted its likely that fluid itself is a bit old now.

 

you need to get it on a machine so that the ABS valve can be opened to get the fluid in there out.
Ds1.11;s are good but the dust from them is mental, i have used CL8's on the road and from cold are epic, but for the money the PF Z rated pads are well worth it, did 400 miles around Spa in two days never any sign of fade, only problem is if you stop when hot you get a deposit left on the disc and that gives you some juddering, but still work very well.

 

So some fresh fluid and better pads and no ducting.

Back to my original input, ducting is a last resort as there are better options to solve any supposed or perceived brake temp issues for trackdays.

 

Thanks Ian, I wondered if that was the case. My ex-K tech mechanic mate Paul Whittaker will be doing it with my help as an extra pair of hands, he has CLiP and pretty much everything else to work on these cars. I had also wondered about pushing the pistons back mucking with the ABS as some cars systems really don't like it much. I also have some other minor things to look at underneath so a good chance to go over the car.

Aerofoil I am indeed hoping that I find genuine race pads and a fluid bleed through will get things good enough, if not the fog lights will be coming out and some ducting put in.

 

I should add that every racey pad has some form of down side it seems. The Pagid yellows for example always seem to need a session on track to re-bed them if the car has been sat around for awhile or not used in anger, many pads seem to transfer material in often not very nice ways when hot. I used to follow a routine of knocking my car into neutral and pushing it a foot or so after it has been sat cooling down for a couple of minutes for that very reason.

 

I tried to do it myself and managed to get air in the ABS module, so took it to the garage around the corner, he had a pressure machine and a hand held pad thing for opening the ABS valves, should have taken it there in the first place

 

All i do is the 5 x 75% braking and cooling down in between on new pads, except the CL8's when i tried it with them, it almost put me through the windscreen.

 

As a general point though there are stil much better and more effective options than ducting: Handed discs with internal curved cooling vanes or proven pillow mounts, 330 mm dia front disc upgrade on standard calipers or a 340 mm conversion using the OEM Megane 250/265/275 discs and calipers, then handed curved vane type 340 mm dia discs.

Of course then there is also the obvious..... what do people expect and how are they actually driving on a trackday where you can manage sessions. Social event not racing.

 

Except that many production cars have some form of device to aid meaningful air flow directed into the brakes. Every Porsche sports car since the 90s for example seems to have some form of cooling deflectors (my old 968 had 2, one on the bottom arm and another bolted onto the strut). Likewise the last Honda CTR also had cooling deflectors for the brakes. The Megane has nothing just relying on movement of the car and the spaces in the arch and wheel to generate enough air flow.

So with all due respect I completely disagree.

..and as for your last comment I won't bite on that one, typical from you.

 

So are you are saying a 340 mm handed disc and caliper upgrade for an R26 isn't more effective than a bit of ducting?

 

Aero - this thread is about ducting. Like it or not, some people want to read about that. If you don't like it, ignore the thread instead of constantly being of a different opinion for the sake of provoking.

 

Think you will find ultralight that post #10 says the same thing as me. It's a discussion, a variety of views, a thread with multiple inputs and also worth discussing that ducting isn't necessarily the best solution. Worth teasing out no?

 

Happy for a discussion.
You don't discuss. You provoke with most of your posts. Not by accident either, but on purpose.

Ducting will be part of a good solution.
Just throwing bigger brakes onto a car, won't necessarily cure the fading either.

 

So are you now in for some discussion with your last comment then lol?

Ducting can be part of a solution but not necessarily the best initial approach. My only input here.

The correct type of big brake upgrade will have a huge effect on thermal management.

 

Always happy for a discussion.
Your immediate response questioning that ("lol") can be interpreted as you not wanting to discuss, but just throwing in opposite views to provoke, as you have done several times in the past.

Anyhow - ducting is not always a solution, I even agree with that. But dismissing the fact that it can help significantly, is as silly as thinking that a big brake kit (even the correct one) will miraculously solve all thermal issues.

 

how can getting some cooling air to the brakes not be beneficial exactly

 

Aero seems to have an issue with the difference of cooling and slower heat build up.

Lots of fresh air (which is also needed to keep the handed disks Aero has referred to) keeps stuff cool. Heat exchange and all that.
A bigger brake kit just takes longer to warm up.

If you'd use the same logic, an engine just needs a massive radiator to keep it cool, but no fresh air...

*above is obviously simplified*

@admin
I am honestly not a type that wants an annoying discussion every single time.
But I am very confident that I am not the only one (I keep having conversations with people of the public forums) that is discouraged and annoyed by every single thread being killed off by a certain behaviour.

 

So we sort of agree then. If you read my posts again, rather than making assumptions, you will find that all I have done is suggest there are alternate and sometimes more effective solutions before having to resort to ducting on an R26.

And in basic laymans terms you never see heavy weight, high performance vehicles with small brakes and extensive ducting as a braking solution.

 

In the grand scheme of things, high end sport cars or race cars rely much more on air management than massive brakes sizes.

 

Well you sort of want a discussion but then you don't?

Ref big and internal curved vaned discs, not straight vanes, they shed a high percentage of heat within the arch area. They act as an internal fan. Self generated ducting. It's why they are the spec on performance discs.

 

Ducting would be a hell of a lot cheaper than big brake conversion as well