Fast road front brake set up

Is it the one at NN13 5TX ?????

 

Yes it is Ian. I guess there is a pub on site (Chef and Brewer pub) but not 100% sure. It'd be good to meet up although not sure when we turn up as my mate tends to be Mr Catastrophe.

 

2nd set of 1144s going on tomorrow with brembo oem rears....this set up has lasted me about 2 years of hard road driving and 1 trackday. Picked the 1144s up for a ridiculously cheap £56 but even at the usual £80 I don't think there is better performance first the money

 

Ebay?

 

2nd set of 1144s going on tomorrow with brembo oem rears....this set up has lasted me about 2 years of hard road driving and 1 trackday. Picked the 1144s up for a ridiculously cheap £56 but even at the usual £80 I don't think there is better performance first the money

 

Yes eBay but wasn't a private seller unusually. Only the 1 set so can only assume was last in stock.

 

I would agree with some of the sentiments in this thread re the standard brake system on the Megane. The brakes aren't great when you're really driving hard. The braking system in the Clio 200 I had felt much more suitable for the car. The Megane is a big heavy car and takes a lot more stopping. For the most part they're decent enough just when you're driving very aggressively or on track they don't feel up to scratch.


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Compared to a Clio the Megane is a heavier car, but it's not a big heavy car per se. The standard fluid and pads aren't suitable for track use, as is the case with most road cars.
Once you've changed the pads for something more track oriented and the fluid for e.g. Motul RBF 600 the brakes are fine.
They may not be up to race standard but they're pretty much as good as you're going to get on a road car driven on track, taking in to account the other limiting factors such as tyres, oil temperature etc.
Driving style / mechanical management also factor significantly in tyre and brake resilience.
I can't imagine what kind of road driving you can do (or where) that would cause the brakes to be the limiting factor?
The Nurburgring is more like a road than any track I've driven on and brakes weren't at the top of my concerns.

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Agreed, nothing wrong with the hardware. Just pads+fluid and you're away.

 

I said oem spec. Braking from high speed to zero is vastly different between Clio and Meg. And I meant the Meg is heavy compared to the Clio. In fact it os a heavy car its big and long, a lot of mass to it. Park next to a BMW you'll see there's not much in it.


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Not sure what you mean Lewis. I find the oe road pads and fluid fine for road use. I find the oe road pads and fluid not fine for track use, which is to be expected and happens on any road car.
On the other hand the oe calipers and discs are fine on track with appropriate pads and fluid. AFAIK they are bigger than the Clio's but I could be wrong. I certainly couldn't get fade out of them on humble PFC Z-rated at Spa or Bedford. Always a good test IME.
In terms of pure performance braking distance will always be limited by front tyre friction anyway. And on that "front", the Megs extra weight will add traction...albeit with more heat than the Clio's...hence the need for serious pads and fluid.

 

What I mean is that in an unmodified fully standard capacity, the Megane brakes aren't amazing. Even with cup 2 tyres which take into account the limiting grip factor (good point) they do feel underpowered when slowing from high speeds rapidly.

There is a split of opinion here that some people think they're fine, others think they're not great. Depends what you consider 'good' I guess....

The Megane is capable of three figure speeds achieved at ease, yet the braking performance does not seem to be 'on par' given the rest of the package. Many others agree.


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I see what you mean now. And the 10% weight difference between the Meg and Clio may explain it. Although the Meg has 10% wider tyres and 10% bigger discs... It is also possible that the cars are differently servoed. But at the end of the day, upgrading the pads and fluid seems to re-align performance compared to a similarly upgraded Clio. I am quite confident I can lock the semis from pretty high speed. I wouldn't need more power and fade resistance is fine too. It's also possible that you had poorly conditioned discs and / or deposit on the Meg.

 

You guys need to have a go in an ep3. Then you'll appreciate the original megane brakes! Granted tho the oem fluid is not up to the job.

 

They are fine for road use yes, as long as you drive within the law. However, should you decide that you want to break the law and drive a bit harder, they can easily be found wanting. And I'll say it again, in optimum conditions the Meganes brakes won't overcome front grip.

The point Lewis was making is that the Cllio RS cars come, as standard, with better brakes. This I agree with.

 

My standard Megane brakes could easily overcome the front PS2s in optimum conditions, like most modern road cars. They can still do it on hot semi-slicks (but with upgraded pads). There is no logical reason for the Clio to have better brakes (as the 10% weight penalty is compensated for by bigger hardware) but compared to a Megane that wouldn't lock its fronts then I can see why the Clio would appear better. I do not believe it's normal for a Megane not to lock it's fronts quite easily. If that happened to me, I would investigate. So for me, the worst case scenario is the OE pads being weaker in the Megane than the Clio. Which can be so easily sorted by better pads, hence my original assumption that there is nothing inherently wrong with the Megane's calipers or discs.

 

The 225/230 Megs and Clio 197/200 use the same size discs, 312x28mm. I'm not sure where you're getting this 10% bigger info from? Just saying

 

Nickfrog refers to M3RS.

 

I did wonder, I missed the bit where it transitioned lol fair enough

 

Its the pad fade on my R26 that really stood out, you're on track, you come into the braking zone and hit the peddle then maybe 1.5 to 2 seconds later you suddenly feel the car isn't pulling up as hard as it was in the first second (so you press harder but it doesn't help much). Had to bail out of a couple of chicanes due to that and decided afterwards that the stock pads just don't work on track, brake really early and it was OK but thats not much fun. I was OK with the PS2 tyres though, short bursts and make sure your not inducing understeer by turning in slowly or early or both (or stepping off the brakes then turning) + get on the power early as the diff pulls the car round and kills mid corner understeer as well.

 

The Clio is smaller and lighter and it has brakes almost as big as the Megane, if not the same calipers? Not sure on this mind you, but this is basic physics that's it's going to perform better. Weight is everything. If you were to be really anal and weigh the two cars and then measure the percentage increase in size of hardware vrs weight and size of cars you'd probably find the Meg isn't improved that much given the extra mass.

I did laugh at the ep3 brake comment above, I agree 100%![emoji14] My ep3 brakes were shocking!

My trophy is pretty much brand new and the brakes are in perfect condition yet I still maintain they could be better. Ideally you don't want to lock the brakes when slowing hard but you shouldn't feel like the car isn't stopping quickly enough despite pressing firmly on the pedal. Also mine whir rather loudly during sustained hard braking like that. This is also something others have reported. I am not saying they're not good, they are pretty good, but I just feel they could be better given the way the car performs. It's an animal and needs serious stopping power! I don't doubt they respond well to light modification but we are discussing the oem braking system that's my point.

Re: some the high and mighty comments about driving hard on a public highway, don't tell me that you all drive 2L turbo performance cars and never press on when safe to do so. I just don't believe it! May as well drive a Prius and have a track car. I do not drive it hard constantly but on occasion she gets a beating and as I do a lot of motorway driving I tend to reach higher speeds and thus have to stop quickly on occasion.


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To add, even in evo vids where they test these sporty Renaults they comment on the brake fade in contrast to the civic type r which has fantastic brakes from the factory.


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Lewis. You don't have to be anal to work out the Meg has bigger calipers, discs and rubber. Think about it : 312 vs 340. Yet the pad covers the entire width of the larger disk so the contact area is greater, the pistons diameter is greater too to push the pad and the caliper is bigger to house that lot and dissipate the extra heat. If anything, and if you really want me to be anal ;-), a 10% larger diameter translates into more than 10% larger contact area. So the Megs has proportionally more stopping power. Working out the weight difference is super easy too. 1240kgs vs 1368kgs. Weight would be everything if the brakes were the same, but they're not. I bought my Cup-S new as in with 3 miles on the clock. I ran the discs in for 100 miles. I then conditioned the discs late at night on a dual carriage away like with any car. If the car then didn't lock the PS2s designed circa 1936 I would probably have driven through the bloody showroom, but out of choice, not accidentally. The OE set up is quite superb. Other members here (Sam) have tracked their brand new Cup S on oe set up and didn't report issues. I should know, I was there at Bedford. Your discs are probably glazed like many discs and the symptoms you report are consistent with that. Surely if new cars can trigger the ABS, and older cars can't then there can only be one conclusion. If I were you I would condition the discs as a next step and see what happens.

 

LOL. Fair enough Jamie - presumably they push a bigger pad onto a bigger area of disc though.

 

There's definitely a reason they don't feel up to scratch and I'm not the only person who thinks so.


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I've also tracked my pretty much new Cup S and was surprised at how well the oem discs and pads held up, compared to my R26 with ds2500.
After they got too hot they were never the same again, even on the road they felt rubbish and rough so I had to change them.

The Cup S however is still fine, no judder or whining on a spirited drive.

 

Hi Nick/guys, the next job will be to refresh my brakes, the discs (250 Cup’s standard grooved) look to be in good condition therefore must’ve fairly recently been replaced by the previous owner, therefore new pads and fluid should do the trick. On the basis that it’s just a fluid change I’m confident of doing this myself, likewise the pads.


My question is if it’s really worth upgrading the hoses (for the relatively small cost)? I’ wouldn’t feel confident bleeding the system myself though following fitting them having got so much air in the system both in the callipers and in the new lines. So are the hoses worth it??!! – In which case I may pay for the privilege of a garage doing it all next time I have something done.


Regarding pads, I’ve used CL RC5+ on fast-road/occasional track, and CL RC6 (and various PF grades) on track before on previous cars and have been happy both times with the CL pads therefore was going to try the RC5+’s again but have read the Thread above regarding upgraded pads and original disc vs upgraded discs and am none the wiser.


On the basis that I’ll be keeping the standard but grooved 250 Cup discs which pads should I go for? - RC5+, or any alternatives, the cost between them all isn’t huge therefore just whatever is best suited for predominantly fast road (where conditions allow blah blah blah) and very occasional (if I ever get the time!) track.


Fluid of choice seems to be RBF600 so unless anyone suggests otherwise then am happy with this.

 

To do a proper fluid change you really someone with Clip or something along those lines, that then means the fluid in the ABS module gets changed as the valves can be opened and fresh fluid pushed through.
I don't know what the mk3 set up is like, but i have standard mk3 disc's and calipers on my mk2 with rc6's and they are amazing, i was advised by another on here who tracks his 250, to try rc8's and i have a set coming tomorrow.
I have also changed my fluid at first i used ate 200, but now have rbf600 in there not tried it yet though.

 

This is pretty much exactly my experience. R26 was the same.

The modulation is good, the initial bite is good, the fade is bad. They don't seem to have any 'substance'. Driving a Clio allows you (well me anyway) to have much more confidence when pushing on, because you know that if you have to, the car will stop on it's nose. You just don't get anywhere near the same feeling in the Megane, and this lack of confidence makes you drive all the more slowly.

I wonder if the difference of opinion here can be explained as that between those who track their Meagnes, and those like me that don't? I wonder if the none-track dayers tend to drive more aggressively on the road?

 

Yes there is a reason and there is only so much rational thinking I can do to help you find out the root cause Lewis. I have no axe to grind, just trying to understand analytically as I can't pretend that my brakes are not up to it if they trigger the ABS practically at will. You might simply not be the only person on glazed discs.

Did you buy the car new and did you bed-in the discs/pads then ? If not try a full re-bedding as it might help - this is a good guide : http://www.powerbrake.co.za/Articles.asp?ID=254

There are now at least 3 people on this site who have tracked a brand new MRS3 and got good braking, even on track, where they shouldn't work.

 

But compare that to his comment re: the EVO test with the Type-R, where they were compared far less favorably against the Honda. The same judgment was made against the Leon 290 I think it was, on Pistonheads.

 

You have to distinguish fade resistance and performance - those are two different yet often confused issues. Road pads don't work on track, they will fade, they're not supposed to otherwise they wouldn't work on the road when cold. It's entirely possible that the Honda has a better compound that has a wider scope than the Megs but the Honda will cook its road pads on circuit eventually, it might take 10 laps rather than 5 but that's a moot point. So many other factors involved too. We're talking road use here anyway, for which I didn't experience lack of performance or fade.
You made an interesting point about non-track dayers. It is possible that the track pedalers uses his brakes far less at the same speed hence not experiencing the weakness of the pads ? It's also possible that the track pedalers adopts bell-shape curved braking pressure on the brakes which massively decrease longitudinal weight transfer and reduces the strain on the front while optimising the rear brakes' involvement. It's a technique that you learn on track and then adopt instinctively wherever you drive.
IME the Meg's hardware is fine. Having checked, the pads are actually 14% larger than the Clio's which should offset the circa 10% mass difference.

 

Don't know about that. My brother hadn't been in the car with me for a few years and commented that he thought the racing would calm be down on the road but it was the reverse! I guess I should grow up really. Its not so much a case of driving quickly more than when you have pushed it like that and learned how to catch a car you just sometimes do crazy things. 99% of the time though I am like driving miss daisy on the public roads, especially around traffic had enough of people trying their best to crash into me thanks.

 

I think that possibly the reason we all have different experiences is, as Xanda alludes to, our different driving styles.
The techniques of how we all brake would be subtly different, combine that with all the other factors and the results can vary widely.
I did experience a tiny bit of fade tonight after a hard stop from 120 ish when someone pulled out in front of me, a short distance ahead.
By fade I mean that using a given pedal pressure the car didn't progressively slow down at the same rate, it lost some braking power and I had to press harder.
I wasn't alarmed, the car still slowed down fine and had it been closer when they pulled out I feel confident that I could have stood on the brakes and dealt with it.
I'm running Brembo hc with Motul RBF 600, mintex pads and goodridge hoses.


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Christ I cannot continue this debate!


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Oh, go on [emoji1]

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It would be nice to get back to learning from others about a "Fast road front brake set up" rather than reading a needless debate on Clio's vs Megane's brakes.

 

Yep! I'm looking to buy soon so have been following. Under a ton I guess its m1144 only? Just for road, if i were to track I'd swap them out

 

Re-posted