Not if you understand basic English. 'More show car than track car' and 'not really modified as a budget conscious and effective track car'.
Hahaha.... So brakes tyres cage and racing suspension are not what you'd suggest to build s track car? Ok! Definitely tapping out now[emoji51] Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The question you should be really asking is what do you really need to spend overall and what are the effective mods to make a 250 a capable track car. Priorities, budget. However, just like the earlier cage debate, you don't seem to be absorbing and digesting any inputs. Too blinkered. Lost cause.
No I'm just not listening to incorrect nonsense that's all. What you're saying is wrong. Tell me what you would do to build a track car then?[emoji848] Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Lewis I think you're a sensible chap but you sound a bit like R26 with his Focus, and that's not a compliment I think you have something personal against Aerofoil which is a shame. You've been given very insightful rationale that you have refused to take on board because of your Rallie experience which is leading you to the wrong conclusion. The scaffolding is indeed for show, it's bolted and not necessary - it's a road car rendered useless and dangerous without a helmet for no benefit but at quite a cost and weight penalty. So some of the mods are fine for track, others not so much, as patiently explained to you.
Sorry if I sounded patronising, I didn't mean to. I work with 550 people in motorsport and not many would agree with you on the cage front, actually probably none. There is a big disconnect between the public's perception of what works and what doesn't on track and the engineering reality of those who actually practice it day in day out. I think I have been quite rational but you didn't seem to notice the following:
Ok fair dos. So are you actually saying that a cage is pretty much ineffective other than from a safety aspect? I am always prepared to hold my hands up when incorrect but I genuinely believe that a cage, especially a full on weld in one that picks up the key suspension points and pierces the bulkhead to be an effective addition to handling performance. I am just utterly baffled that none of you guys share the same view. Honestly utterly amazed! I totally get what you are saying about poor quality cages that do not fix to key flex points on the car, but if that Megane in question is fitted with a (properly) fitted safety devices cage then I believe it would aid rigidity and therefore enable the car to turn in more efficiently and corner more efficiently etc etc, hence my comments above. Couldn't type protracted responses earlier as I was busy! I agree it's an expensive car but the fact of the matter is that those modifications will assist in going faster around a track. I have the same tyres on my 275 trophy and I can say from experience they are amazing in the dry Ps. I've driven the new focus RS and I wasn't hugely impressed with it, but that's another story. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What they are saying is that a cage will only help rigidity in a car that isn't rigid in the first place i.e. a Rallye (hence the difference you notice). In a modern sports car it is already so stiff that the difference is imperceptible.
To be fair to Lewis, Aerofoil is often a PITA However if the point Aerofoil is attempting to make is that, "a track car should have everything removed, custom loom, carbon door cards, aircon delete etc" then he's being his usual moronic self because the reality of living with a car like that is simply not nice. Trailer / race shuttle, tow car, storage costs or a massive house and drive etc... and, with respect, not too many people aspire to want a 'full on race car Megane' Putting my point in context - *that* cage, *that* car, very little difference to rigidity of chassis (and thus affect on cornering). As above, a modern car isn't going to benefit much (if at all) from a cage from a rigidity / handling point of view - it's the safety aspect that's key On the flip side... Take a meg race car, add in a full-on welded cage.... then yeah, you'll add much more metal into the car than that example above, and as you've stripped the whole thing back to its bare chassis, the cage itself will no longer be "a cage in a car" but has actually, from a structural point of view, altered the chassis and the weight balance and so on. BUT, a cage alone is no good and won't suddenly make the handling better... you need to change the suspension as the weight of the car and distribution has changed, custom settings for each track, probably running wider track and rubber, lower the car blah blah And the latter is what really changes the handling. The raison d'etre for the cage is safety, to go racing, and not handling as a result of the stiffening... which is my point
Hi George, yes I understand the benefits will vary according to the age and type of car, I've already acknowledged this above. We are talking about the Megane in the op to be specific. My trophy door seals creak when i go down the drop kerb at my house and my pal with the same car has the same experience with his one. This is evidence the chassis is twisting ever so slightly under the force of exertions, hence why I am banging on about the SD cage being a notable modification in that it will assist handling by reducing flex and thus enabling the suspension to work more effectively. I'm not a motorsport engineer As stated, however all the information I have read and guys I have spoken to (reputable tuners and engineers) are what's led me to this (seemingly incorrect) conclusion[emoji45] A rigid structure bolted inside the car is not pointless if fitted correctly. Also it goes without saying you'd wear a helmet. Anyway that argument is also bollox because you'd be strapped into the buckets via the harnesses with no risk to bang your head due to the lack of movement in the seat once fastened in, and they're probably fitted lower than standard anyway and the occupants head would be further from the bar. I suspect they'd still wear a helmet to mitigate any risk of injury during an accident. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The thread title says it all for me 23k for a 2011 Megane 250 when you can have a Megane 275 trophy on a 14 plate for 22k from ktec. 4 seats Wider market for resale Drive it on the road or track plus not having the concerns if you were involved in a RTA that the full cage could be fatal with no helmet
Nice of you to try and assume what I'm saying. Wrong of course. Where do custom looms, carbon door cards and a trailer suddenly come into it. Basically, with a 250 donor car and the supposed £15K mod budget blown on that baby, you can achieve a much more effective track car. Or another way of looking at it, same track pace, much less budget. It wouldn't look quite so Gucci in the paddock though.
You keep banging on about budget. You stated above that it is a show car and an ineffective track car, I cannot fathom that you believe this nonsense. Who fits Michelin pilot sport cup 2 tyres and nitron suspension and buckets if they're not building a track car. I am chuckling here though I must admit so thanks [emoji1303] To summarise: YES, while it is overpriced (said this ten times now already) the modifications are sensible and worthwhile options if you plan to drive it hard on a track, or even on a road of you can stand the impracticality of buckets harnesses and lowered suspension on a daily basis. Your comments re budget and effectiveness do not make sense. Common mistake amongst newbie jackasses is the mindset that spanking loads of money on the engine and omitting handling (brakes suspension tyres) means they'll have a really fast car, when In actual fact you're better off with less power and improved handling performance. Surely the very ethos of Renaultsport itself illustrates this perfectly a la 275 bhp trophy R being more effective than many other more powerful and exotic cars on a track? Or not. Because it looks cool and is not really cheap so therefor must be a show car (using your logic)[emoji848] Also you still haven't been specific about what modifications you would carry out instead. At least try to reinforce your point with some sensible suggestions. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Lewis, you really are not understanding anything that is being said. Example, expensive CAE shifter or a simple and much cheaper 100 kg weight loss?
Another one...... Bin the fancy bespoke trim panels and Cup tyres and spec road legal Dunlop DZ03G tyres in soft R1 compound.
He's already removed the interior? Also the tyres you suggested, well he already has cup 2's so the improvement would be marginal if anything. Porsche gt3's have those cup 2 tyres which suggests to me and anyone with sense that they are more than up to the job. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Loving this thread!! I don't normally comment but feel I should say that this was my car, I bought it with most of the mods already done but added the cage, seats and harnesses to complete what MUST be the most modified rs 250 in the country! The point of this for me was to own and use the car on track, is it the fastest megane or car on track? NO, is the build compromised? probably as its not as light as you may like. Did I spend more money than most would? Most definitely but it ALL works very well and components are a credit to the suppliers and in my opinion look good. Is it too expensive? Add the parts up and the cost of fitting plus a decent base car and you'll find it's very good value. If you can't afford it don't buy it but someone will. Ktec have looked after me and the car very well. When I bought the car I wanted a car the when you opened the doors still looked like a car and not like something dragged from a salvage yard, stripped of its glory and thrashed. I've also had one of these! Lol My advice is If you want a race car you should buy one, and before anyone asks I have owned and driven probably one of the fastest affordable race cars available. I have moved this car on as I fancied a change and it was not getting used. I think its criminal to have a car like this sat in the garage. Whilst I love a good debate i feel that what is often forgotten on forums is that we ALL share the same passion "the love of cars" some of us drive them, some of us show them, some of us aspire to buy that dream car one day. It doesn't matter what you have or should have. I love driving on track and meeting like minded individuals having fun with their chosen track weapons! None of us are wrong! Everyone can have an opinion! And there is always someone on track faster than we are driving something that really shouldn't be that quick. I'll see some of you on track again in the near future, driving something over priced and compromised in some way. Everyone is welcome to passenger laps I'll make sure the car is nicely warmed up first. Peace out
Fair play Carl, I'm a friend of Steve1 and so many track days with him and he's mentioned you in the past. Looks a nice example of a well spec'd 250 you had there and it's certainly been done nicely, maybe not to everyone's taste but after all you had an objective and it was your hard earned after all. Top work mate, hopefully bump into you on a track day some time. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Good post from Rcarl that honestly sums up the car and also appreciates the diverse views and inputs.
My car really isn't far from this car at all and I'm all with something like this hence my car being closely specced bar my half cage against full. I chose the half cage more for somewhere safely to mount harnesses and the little additional safety added. I also have a cae shifter and haven't gutted the car to inch of its life as I still wanted something I could get in and enjoy without being deaf or shatter my teeth. The shifter yes may not add any gains but it's for the experience of driving. I do think it's over priced and could never imagine asking anywhere that for mine. Either way it's the perfect car for someone and ktec have the benefit of being well known and specialist in renaultsport so it will sell
Now you are completely reverting on everything you've said above. Anyway yes good post from Carl. Nice car dude, I bet it was a hoot[emoji1305] Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Lots to learn, particularly if you keep an open mind and can appreciate a balanced and varied viewpoint and debate.
I digest sensible advice but not total nonsense from a newb who has never built a track car or has any insight into what's involved with doing so. Some of the other guys have posted some interesting points (albeit delivered in a patronising way), however all you have done is rubbish the car in question and brand it a show car from the outset. You have a bee in your bonnet about the fact it's not been a budget build, God knows what that has to do with anything. Since then you've back tracked which is plain to see for all. Anyhow I've said my piece so I'll leave it there. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Life would be boring if we all thought and liked the samethings. I have enjoyed the debate, been informative and gives a clear indication what can be achieved also gives the rest of us ideas for developing our own cars hopefully avoiding any pitfalls along the way.
He hasn't. You clearly have something against the guy, which clouds your judgement and spoils what could be a fascinating engineering discussion, rather than argument. He happens to understand the basics, you don't. Which you find very inconvenient because you dislike him. It's very difficult not to be patronising as you seem to refuse any rational explanations and you seem stuck on your Rallye experience which is misleading you. Btw, I didn't want to mention it the first time so that I don't sound patronising (I am not being sarcastic) but as you've come up with the door seal thing again : things flex otherwise they would snap. Particularly on 3 wheels. What's important is by how much they flex. The quite annoying thing is how you have refused to take on board any of the pragmatic info that has been given to you by at least 3 people in addition to Aerofoil.
I think you are actually incapable of not being patronising... I don't have anything against anyone, you just don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that Aerofoil has been negative about the car from the outset, yet as soon as the cars owner chirps up he completely changes his tone. It's quite simple to see if you re read the thread. It's remarkable how you've managed to overlook this. I have also digested the interesting and relevant points from the thread as previously stated countless times. I just don't agree with all of it. You shouldn't believe everything you read on the Internet. Question everything[emoji6] #trollcage Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Agreed, although you wrote this When all the technical knowledge in the real world of motorsport and here has told you the opposite to your assumption. I don't know what that means, I am too old and don't too FB/Twitter I have no idea how I was patronising in my last post, please enlighten me. You have nothing against Aerofoil ? This is not how it comes across.
I completely agree that the internet is full of rubbish and you of course should question assertions, but the points about rigidity are based on physics and engineering fact. If you take a first principles approach (with only basic physics or engineering knowledge) and step through the 'assertions' it should be clear that they are correct.
Re: the roll cage debate @Nick and others who disagree If we are still even talking about roll cages (yes it is a weld in cage but in general) (Note, extract taken from the custom cages website) I chose this company as they are a commonly recognised specialist in the field. "Improved bodyshell stiffness enhances handling by feeding suspension loads into the base of the roll cage; can be used or seat harness mounting in some models." Obviously (I say obvious but it clearly isn't to some of you) the effects/benefits of such will vary depending on chassis flex present prior to fitment. Unless you can present factual evidence that the presence of a cage in a Megane has a negligible effect on chassis flex and handling performance I refuse to accept your opinions (again I say opinions because you cannot substantiate any of it) as factual. I think that's reasonable?[emoji848] Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Unless you can present factual evidence that the presence of a cage in a Megane has any effect on chassis flex and handling performance I refuse to accept your opinion (again I say opinion because you cannot substantiate any of it) as factual. I think that's reasonable? You do realise that, as patiently explained to you in layman terms by Neil and myself, stiffening the chassis and improving the handling are two different things anyway ? If you do stiffen the chassis, you'll probably worsen the handling unless you swap/recalibrate/test/shakedown/fine tune ALL of the suspension kinematics ? Which is what engineers usually get more or less right with huge budgets. As Neil said, start from a bare shell and yes you will have a gain on a race car. On a stiff road car ? No chance. I don't know what the torsional rigidity of a Megane shell is and I do not have access to a rig capable of measuring it, amongst other things. If I do find evidence that it's over 25,000 Nm per degree, will you be happy with that ? (It looks more like 30k to me).
