Yes because FWD is the "pure" approach. The Focus RS was never meant to rewrite anything other than the driveline, it uses rear axle torque vectoring that already exists along side an AWD system that already existed to create a car that would give the feel of RWD with the added traction of AWD, which is EXACTLY what it does. Tell me how it compared to lighter and more powerful A45. Tell me how it compared to the more powerful and lighter RS3. How did it do against the Golf R? It's at a disadvantage weight wise against all those, power wise for two of them, gearbox wise for all of them. Now tell me the dynamic AWD does Nothing for handling.
Let me predict your response! "The Focus lost in a straight line" "The A45 beat it by .1 of a second" "The gearboxes don't add any advantage" "The Focus was being polished" Blah blah blah
How are we now talking about the focus again in a 'last great Megane' thread Just leave it be man, taking it all way too personal. He is throwing bait and you are biting every time!
A more relevant analysis is there is no point in trying to rationalise someone out of a valid viewpoint, if that person is already heavily biased.
hmm... no, the point is that your arguments aren't evidence-based, it's essentially sentiment. Nothing wrong with that, but you present it as fact - which it isn't. Some of the stuff you say doesn't even make sense as a standalone sentence, e.g. "Sure, and that traction versus lateral g (and longitudinal g) is the where the compromises arise with both drivetrains." ... the mind boggles as to what that even means. Mentioning g, traction, drivetrains... suffice to say you don't have a math or mech eng degree I respect all opinions, but if you want to not be thought of as trolling, then the signal to noise ratio needs to improve. If you want to bring science or engineering into an argument to support a viewpoint then go for it - but at least make valid claims
Sure. All lap times are evidence based. They are reality. Mountune prediction was correct. Focus RS jurno hype is a personal opinion. Allowed. Ref the drivetrain and 'g'. Lighter 2WD vehicles have deceleration and initial corner entry advantages due to less overall vehicle mass and better initial corner entry radial 'g' They also can have acceleration advantages if traction can be maintained due to less mass. 4WD can have corner apex to corner exit advantages in low traction scenarios and during lower traction acceleration phases (down the longitudinal vehicle axis). Over to you dude. Have an input, otherwise is might just look like fringe dwelling criticism.
it can't all be journo hype, even you must be able to see that, the bs meter is going off the scale LOL
I think a lot of people's problems is we are at a point of change... A lot of stuff is changing in the car world for safety, emissions reasons etc. Remember when the 197 first came out? Most mags and people didn't rate it and then it developed in to the final version of the 200 which is/was considered to be one of the best hot hatches. Same with the 225 which ended up at the R26R.... Arguably the early cars weren't great to drive but it then ended up being one of the best cars to drive ever made. As someone mentioned previously on here- the specs go up all the time. Soon a 275hp Megane will be mid range when the RS is 350hp. Everyone will get used to it (the 4wd, electronic's, dash boxes etc) and forget about it.... Good drivers cars will still be made. There will always be a demand for drivers car no matter how small it be there will be a product to cater for it but it's all down to the manafacturers. If it is indeed the case the 200T has not sold well, I doubt Renault will make the same mistakes with the Megane HOWEVER they clearly aren't going to ignore the Focus RS and come out with something 2WD and 50hp less.
You weren't correct on the mountune prediction as mountune haven't released any figures yet. Stick to facts, all the facts, not just the ones you prefer.
The basic misconception about 4wd road cars stems from the fact that 4 is a larger number than 2 so it's bound to be better. And also from the fact that basic smoothness of input is getting rarer. The reliance on 4wd to do the traction management is becoming prevalent amongst the younger generation of point and squirters, who couldn't spot an overservoed brake pedal either. An on/off switch like pedal must mean good brakes innit and forget the old git who cares about modulation. I am an old git btw, in case you hadn't noticed. And I am actually glad that 4wd road cars exist. It makes roads safer for the rest of us, what with their "infinite traction" (at 5/10ths ;-)).
No idea what you mean with most of that sentence. Lap times for what... All 2WD cars are quicker? :-/ Perfect example of what I mean. 1. "Lighter" isn't synonymous with 2WD, so that's a claim without substance, and nobody is discussing or comparing identical cars bar the drivetrain 2. Mass? You said lighter then said mass. Mass isn't weight. What?! Anyway, "less mass" isn't synonymous with "deceleration advantages" - which, incidentally, haven't been defined. Do you mean "quicker"? If so, weight is only one of many factors that will affect the rate of deceleration 3. "Corner entry advantages" - not defined. What advantages? In short, you're making statements using terms that are undefined and thus nonsensical. There is no debate to be had, because you're not making any defined claims. The words you're using don't mean anything, in any context 4WD isn't better or worse than 2WD in terms of making blanket statements. Both have benefits in certain scenarios and there are huge differences between cars that are 4WD; Evos are completely different to drive compared to GTRs. GTRs weigh a ton, yet nobody could claim there are "cornering disadvantages" purely associated with that when you see what lateral grip they can produce Anyway - as I say, it feels like trolling because there's a lot of noise but you're not saying anything.
Unfortunately your totally missing the thrust of the 2WD versus 4WD argument. Comparing a GTR to a random 2WD car is totally irrelevant. I could chose a lightweight (low mass) 2WD Caterham 500 and it will produce more lateral grip and g in certain circumstances. Proves nothing. It's an irrelevant argument. What you need to do is quantify how your GTR would perform if it was 2WD, lost a huge amount of the mass and weight associated with the 4WD drivetrain. On your points above: 1. 2WD is lighter than 4WD because you have no additional drivetrain. You can't add 4WD to a vehicle and maintain mass and weight without compensating for it in other areas. If your thrust is there are some heavy 2WD cars and some light 4WD cars, then well done. Fairly obvious. 2. Mass, weight. Depends on how you want to define the vehicle. Adding 4WD to a set vehicle increases both. Deceleration? Adding extra weight in the same vehicle, same conditions, reduces deceleration. 4WD traction may improve acceleration. Nothing confusing here. 3. Corner entry for a fast lap time is the max radial g you achieve. Add weight to a vehicle and that reduces. Looks like your input here is there are some 4WD cars that can generate more grip and traction than some 2WD cars or vice versa Too simplistic. To quantify it you need to look at the advantages and disadvantages when applied to a single vehicle. Why its chosen at the concept and design phase of a vehicle.
Wrong. The Mountune Stage 1 release was just a load of bling. Even you acknowledged that I was right. Coincidentally, I have just been awarded the renowned 2016 World Crystal Ball award.
Wrong AGAIN, phase 1 release of products. No release of any staged upgrade packages. Try again. Bullshit award more like.
Sure is, hype: extravagant or intense publicity or promotion. The motoring media does this every know and then. Sells copy. Flavour of the month stuff. Things will drop back to normality soon and the true capability teased out. Interestingly, the Focus RS forums are much more measured, critical and balanced regarding their reviews of new Mk3 Focus RS. Why? Because they have a load of 2WD Mk2 Focus RS owners providing a balance. Refreshing and honest.
I'll repeat again, there has been no stage 1 release! People may have been expecting one because they didn't understand the wording from mountune. Phase 1 release of tuning products, no packages, Products. Sinking in yet? Anyway, your original theory was based around limitations of the 4wd system, limits that have already been exceeded by others, again proving you wrong.
Wrong. Mountune used the wording 'upgrade packages' for the build up to what they called 'Phase 1'. They only released products. People were expected a power upgrade package at the same time. And your exact words after the release:
The wait is over... Our Phase 1 upgrades are live! http://www.blog.mountune.com/index.php/component/k2/item/114-focus-rs-phase1-upgrades-available #RSupgrades #performanceDNA #upyourgame #mountune #engineereddifference Hey guys, so we were keen to keep this back but figured now may be the best time to share with you. A few of you are obviously disappointed that the upgrade kit isn't signed off yet, but we can assure you not half as much as we are! To deliver a properly engineered product that provides proven, reliable performance takes time - particularly when maintaining new vehicle warranty is concerned. But let's not forget about all the other cool upgrades we have ready to go - Phase 1 was just the opener and the upgrades get bigger and better! Oh, and have you watched the video? How many of you stayed 'til the end? #sneakpeak Seriously guys, enjoy the ride, it will be well worth the wait. Thanks for your patience. #mountune #upyourgame #engineereddifference #performanceDNA Still Wrong. Still no release of upgrade packages. No mention of "upgrade packages" until after the May 1st phase 1 reveal. Looking past the wording, your prediction was the 1st upgrade package would amount to no more than an air filter and 2 bhp, seeing as No actual package has been released you are still WRONG. And I'll repeat the following as you like to avoid subjects you get wrong. Your original theory was based on the "limitations" of the 4wd, seeing as those limits have been surpassed your theory has been proven to be nothing but hot air.
Keep backpeddling. The Mountune stage 1 release you quoted above used the words 'upgrade kit' for both the Phase 1 release and the power upgrade. Here is what they were using before the 1 May release - 'upgrade'. They never referred to it as just a set of 'products'. Thats what confused everyone and why Mountune lost cred: 28 Apr: Wanna be the first to see the brand new RS Phase 1 upgrades literature? Be sure to sign up to receive the #mountune newsletter, and keep a check of your inbox! 30 Apr: Who's ready for some RS upgrades? #RSPhase1 #May1st #4pm #mountune So I was right on both counts, no more power on 1 May Stage 1 release and only just a load of bling. Where's me Crystal Ball?
Neither references kit or package before May 1st, kit is then only used once after the initial reveal. You fail so hard.
Then when they do reference "kit", it's in a completely different context. As an apology for it not being ready, as they never said it was ready, people miss understood, you still misunderstand. You fail so hard. And again. Your original theory was based on the "limitations" of the 4wd, seeing as those limits have been surpassed your theory has been proven to be nothing but hot air. Keep ignoring the fact you're wrong.
Keep trying. Never any mention of just 'products'. Now you're trying to say it was all in a 'different context'. Mountune even had to publically explain why there was no power increase in the Stage 1 upgrade. It created huge disappointed media buzz and discussion. Hindsight expert.
No mention of packages or kits, upgrade products only! Kits will have MR or MP in front of it. People got confused over the wording, you're still confused. Only mention of kits was in an apology when people lost their shit, they apologised they're not ready. Take it all in. And again. Your original theory was based on the "limitations" of the 4wd, seeing as those limits have been surpassed your theory has been proven to be nothing but hot air.
Wrong. Never any mention of Phase 1 being an 'upgrade products only'. People were expecting an MR or MP as part of the Phase 1 upgrade. All their media slowly released leaked up to the Phase 1 upgrade was indicating that. Hindsight is such a beautiful thing.
Wrong! Never mentioned kits or packages, anything else was assumption/confusion. Upgrades/products only, it's not difficult. Kit was mentioned in an apology, as there was NO kit, people assumed there was, there wasn't. Getting it? What people were expecting is irrelevant, it was never advertised as packages or kits, MP or MR. Getting it? Aaaaaand again. Your original theory was based on the "limitations" of the 4wd, seeing as those limits have been surpassed your theory has been proven to be nothing but hot air.
What people were expecting was what Mountune lead them to believe. It’s quite simple. They never mentioned the MP or MR upgrades were going to be a later release. They never clarified the Phase 1 would be products only. They had to backtrack big time after 1 May. They screwed up on the pre-release build up and publically had to explain themselves afterwards. Even afterwards they referred to power increases as 'upgrades'. It was a media disaster for Mountune. They know it and so did prospective customers. The forums were red hot over the screw up. A few hindsight specialists of course now think they knew better. I'm also not sure the porky Ford actually deserves this level of Mountune discussion here. Bottom line. No extra power.
Bottom line, you're wrong. And again. Your original theory was based on the "limitations" of the 4wd, seeing as those limits have been surpassed your theory has been proven to be nothing but hot air.
I'd give up with him. Apparently, which did make me laugh when I read the reply, he thinks Ford and other manufacturers are taking the same car and just adding a 4WD drivetrain to it :rolleyes: That, plus comments like this, "Corner entry for a fast lap time is the max radial g you achieve" ... kinda pointless. Would get a better conversation from an echo.
More chance of stapling water to a wall. Still my favourite bit was when he said this was the wrong area for Focus chat, another irony bomb.
That I understand, the point that you miss is that it was okay until he lost his argument. Funnily enough it's been busier discussing a Focus than a Megane.
he hasn't got a car and doesn't do track days, so just take his trolling in that context, its getting funnier the more he tries to be clever, LOL
On another note what's wrong with this forum, doesn't say who posted last and I can't start a thread, when will it be sorted
Corner entry speed is very closely linked to front track width and centre of gravity, its why modern performance cars have got so wide and why race cars run big wheel arch extensions to maximise track width. It has pretty much nothing to do with which wheels are driven from what I can tell.
My two peneth worth. Just come back from a weekend 600 mile blast around Wales. E30 m3, my e36, e46csl, e46 m3, Audi rs4, Clio 197 cup and boxster. A couple of 100kg makes all the difference. I never expected the e30 to disappear on most legs of the journey and leave the newer m3s trying. The Clio couldn't hold on despite trying hard over the black mountain pass and I was a passenger in it at this point. I don't think it would have been any easier in my golf r if I'm honest! Looking forward to my cup s on ohlins arriving. Quick pic just off Epping Forrest Rally Stage. A military road but great fun if open.
