2005 megane 225 clutch bleeding woes

Discussion in 'Mechanical - Engine, Gearbox, Exhaust etc' started by Lee Robertson, Nov 18, 2018.

  1. Just fitted a new dual mass flywheel, clutch kit and slave cylinder. I cannot, no matter what i've tried to get a good clutch pedal feel, i've bled this bloody thing every which way.
    Only way i got a pedal, which was unbelievably stiff was to stop the bleeding, close nipple and just manually pull the pedal up, down by hand? Started car up, can't get a gear at all!!
    Everything is the Luk brand, i remembered to reset the auto clutch adjustment before fitting(by Haynes and Renault service manual method) , and clutch disc is right way round!:-)
    What the hell is wrong?? Im pretty sure new slave cylinder is goosed, or air in system. I tried to prime and fill the slave cylinder before fitting, but it wouldn't draw in fluid or expel air which i thought was odd, but still fitted it.I've tried to bleed this thing for hours, i'm sick of it, reverse bleeding, Haynes and service manual methods too. Help!
     
  2. Did you post this on the Renaultsport forum, if so i have replied to your post.

    "Hi Robbo
    The only real way i have found to bleed the clutch is as follows, you need a piece of clear tubing just big enough to fit over the short stub that is on the end of the clutch pipe where it attaches to the slave cylinder, this tubing needs to be long enough to end above the master cylinder.

    attach the pipe and pull the joiner out one click and leave for a good few hours.

    After a couple of hours, push the pipe back in to its full home position, then you need to find a stick or such like to hold the clutch peddle down and wedged against the steering wheel, leave it with the peddle fully depressed for a couple of hours or overnight is better, then release the peddle slowly."
     
  3. Yes i'm currently trying your method right now! :-) Just that someone replied to try this forum too. Thanks.
     
  4. There's a lot more information available on this site than almost any other
     
  5. There's somebody keeps getting onto me about my problem being the way i reset the self adjustment on the clutch pressure plate.
    I done it exactly as show in my Renault service manual, and my Haynes one. He says if you don't use the proper big Luk tool while clutch is on the car it won't work?
    How can Haynes and the service manual be wrong??
    Here is apic of my old clutch on the car, and the second pic is my new one.
    You'll see the green adjustment springs are extended and relaxed on the old clutch, like they should be, and reset and compressed on my new clutch.
    DSC_0562.JPG DSC_0574.JPG
     
  6. I am really unsure about that, don't remember mine being like that, sure the little springs on my new plate were the same as the top picture, i tried for ages to get a good peddle and the method i found that worked is what is above.
     
  7. In the service manual it says pressure should be applied to the centre pressure plate fingers, then the three green springs are compressed when the plate inside is turned anti-clockwise, then you release pressure on the clutch fingers in the centre. Here's the page in the service manual, Haynes the same.
    _20181118_091416.JPG
     
  8. Left the second stage with clutch pedal right down over night. Same thing happened as the last time i got a pedal feel, clutch pedal is a couple of iches iff the deck, pump it a few times and pedal goes stiff as hell, but you can't get gears, gear lever is just going up against a brick wall!
    I'm going to have to get to the bottom of the actual clutch pressure plate self adjust settings. Guy on another forum is basically tell me the method i used going by the Renault service manual, and Haynes manual is wrong!!
    I'm going to be really pissed off if it is as i'm not looking forward to taking all this crap apart again! :-)
    He says he had this problem years ago with a Bmw, you 'have' to use the Luk install tool or clutch won't work, and the clutch 'has' to be on the car?
    I even heard of guys drilling a hole in their bellhousing when they've forgotten to do what i've done before fitting the clutch.
    They reset it through the hole!
     
  9. what a complete bastid, thanks for the heads up as a future reference with a LUK clutch, i know that a couple of companies have fitted the drive plates the wrong way round in the past, the clutch works but then kills the slave cylinder very soon after.

    If you can't get any gears it is fairly obvious that it's not disengaging at all.

    On my mk2 i bought a new single mass flywheel and clutch, fitted it no problem then found that the previous slave cylinder was different to a normal one, the end of the cylinder was different I think that was a LUK part, i had to buy a complete new pipe, seems like they want you to use there kit all the time or charge you for special tools to do a straight forward job.

    Good luck Lee, hope you get it sorted but the clutch bleeding works, so worth doing when you have sorted the problem.
     
  10. Was at it today for a while after calling my local Renault dealer. Mechanic said you've got to prefill/prime the slave cylinder.
    Now i did try this before the cylinder was on the car, i dipped the end in brake fluid and slowly pumped the cylinder, it wouldn't draw in fluid, or fart out bubbles?
    Which confuses but thought what the hell, it will bleed on the car!
    So, after phone call i said to him i'll just pull clutch pipe off the slave altogether, then add a small pipe on the slave pipe and inject in fluid with a syringe!
    Tried this, haven't a clue if any got in, there was just loads of back pressure, just had to keep trying.
    Misses is in the car pumping the pedal, oh it's getting better, is it? I'm saying soaking in clutch fluid, yep she said, brilliant i thought, went in and tried pedal myself, it's exactly the bloody same as it was!
    Bloody wind up merchant was probably pressing the brake! Wouldn't put it past her! :-)
     
  11. Got a better sized syringe today and filled slave. I'm getting a pedal feel i haven't had before, pedal half way up and stiff!I'll bleed tomorrow again. It was a stiff clutch on this car anyway, incidentally are anybody else's clutch pedals stiff? Heard a few people say they are.
     
  12. Can't tell you how pissed off i am about this, i done everything by the renault service manual yet i get no gears??
    Spoke to a company called Schaeffer, or something like that that provides Luk clutches in the Uk.
    He says i did everything right, he did say however it's crucial to use the Luk fitting tool, despite Haynes, service manual and videos showing no mention of a tool! Just take care in equally, and slowly tightening the pressure plate bolts.
    He reckons i've been unlucky in maybe compressing auto adjust too much (i set it exactly as manuals showed, green springs compressed fully) or there's a slight uneven pressure on the pressure plate bolts. He says he has a feeling i will see maybe one of the auto adjust springs will have moved, it will all need reset.
     
  13. just get a new clutch kit, LuK tool is so expensive might as well get a new clutch kit
     
  14. Renault manual doesn't even mention that tool. General concensus is, and there are numerous videos to back it up online is that just mount up the pressure plate after adjusters are set(or their set out the box) then just tighten up pressure plate nuts diagonally a quarter turn at a time to correct torque, which is what i did.
    I don't know how in the hell i could have gone wrong following the service manual, clutch disc is obviously dead centre as gearbox just fell on!
    Regarding that clutch tool, internets a funny thing, spent one evening pricing one up, couldn't get one cheaper than 2 or 3 hundred quid, next night i found them on Amazon for 70 bucks!
    Incidentally i've heard people sucessfully drilling an access point in the bellhousig and resetting the adjusters 'and' retightening the pressure plate bolts in-situ! Honestly, i've never been so tempted by a bodge lol, just get it welded back up later.
     
  15. Like toff says, bite the bullet and put in a new (different) kit, that's stupid having to pay out another £200 for the tool to do the job.
    On here somewhere is the part numbers to the Dci kit that's an upgrade over the standard clutch, it will take more torque, i was running 330 ftlb with it no problem.
     
  16. I've actually just bought a dci clutch just incase, it has a different updated slave cylinder, metal pipe instead of plastic.Got the whole kit for £80!:-)
    I'm going to drill a small hole in the bellhousing to inspect whats going on with my probe camera first.
    Incidentally i dropped into yet another garage for an opinion, yet again they jump in just after i mention Megane, "You can't get it bled"?
     
  17. RSPhil

    RSPhil RSM Club Member

    I could be wrong here - but I had a new clutch, slave cylinder and flywheel fitted by Mark at Midlands Renault Specialist on Tuesday.
    It was a LUK kit direct from Renault.

    He bled using a vacuum pressure bleeder. BUT.... I watched him put the clutch in and there was no faffing about with a special tool or adjusting the springs or anything that I could see - my clutch is perfect and biting point is pretty much an inch off the floor

    As far as I could tell he just fitted it with an alignment tool - put the gearbox back on. Pumped the pedal a ton of times, bled, pumped it a ton of times more. Job done.

    You could give him a ring and ask? He's a really helpful and friendly guy
     
  18. Thanks for that, will do. Luk clutches sometimes become 'unset' during postage(mine) so i had to set mine. Just had a new one delivered, it's set ready yo go!
    Just had a look at my newly made little peep hole in the bellhousing and the slave cylinder seems to be doing it's thing!
    I'll give Mark a call, cheers!
     
  19. RSPhil

    RSPhil RSM Club Member

    That sounds more like it, I would have thought they'd come preset ready to be installed.

    Good luck!!
     
  20. Had an interesting call today with Schaeffler Uk, who deal with Luk clutches. They have a technical department and i first emailed them a couple of times and they gave me a couple of suggestions.
    A day went by and i got an email back wondering how i got on with the suggestions. ! Told him still no luck, he then picked up on something i said to him.
    He is convinced there is a blockage/restriction in the clutch line. Today i disconected the clutch line just after the short pipe between the master cylinder and the bulkhead, misses pushed clutch pedal down, the fluid just dribbled out?? It should shoot out, shouldn't it?
    Either that small plastic connection block on the bulkhead is partially blocked or my master cylinder is knackered!
     
  21. Lee, i really hope you get to the bottom of this problem, a blockage in the feed pipe was not a fault anyone really would have thought of.

    Don't get disillusioned with the car, they are worth the hassle for when they work as they should.
     
  22. Just read through your issues. You don’t need the special tool or doing it on the car if you’ve set the pressure plate which it looks like you have then that is correct. I prefixed my slave as best possible with a old style small oil pump tool. Then I used a large 100mm from memory syringe and tube and reverse bled back from the bleed nipple up to the reservoir. Once the fluid was flowing back up you can do a normal type bleed from the bleed nipple to get ant residual air out. This worked first time for me but they do have a reputation for been pigs to bleed. The bleed nipple isn’t at the end where the slave is which I think is the issue as air can get trapped right at the end.
     
  23. If there is a blockage forcing fluid up the system may well dislodge it aswell.

    I got the big syringe off eBay or amazon
     
  24. I can't understand why the master cylinder doesn't force out fluid when i disconnect the quick release pipe at the bulkhead. Im sure there is some restriction in that plastic block mounted on the bulkhead.
    Never had time to investigate it. Everytime i try to reverse/back bleed it i get back pressure? So something is partially blocked i think.
    I was starting to think master cylinder but brakes are solid.
     
  25. I can’t picture the quick release your on about and I’ve sold my car so I can’t look. But simplistically if the reservoir was sealed shut, and the pipe at the other end was blocked off then any potential blockage could only have come from the slave when it was fitted? My slave had some weird white stuff in it which flushed out but I wouldn’t have said it was anything that could have blocked the pipe.

    Have you tried drawing the fluid back through the system from the bleed nipple using the syringe see if that gets things moving??
     
  26. I've just bought a vacuum bleeder so i'll try it. Only reason you're not sure of the quick release thing is because you've probably never seen it lol. It's behind air filter, press clip in then connection comes apart, sort of opposite of bleed clip which pushes in!
    There's a short pipe comes off the master reservoir which goes to a small plastic block, i pushed clutch and fluid just trickled out this block when i disconnected at it's outlet? , it should fly out!
    Bought a cheap vectra 2.2 diesel to run around while this cars playing funny buggers. Had little problem with that so need to get back to Renault.
    Slave cylinder in Renault 'is' operating towards the clutch plate, but not enough to disengage it. Pedal is just going really hard after a few pumps, instead of soft if air is in it,which is confusing!
     
  27. Hi I'm having exactly same problems it's driving me insane I've been at it for 4 days.
    I bought the car off one of these know it all but knows f**k all type of guys..
    Couldn't bleed it up so sold it to me cheap.
    First problem encountered was... he had fitted solid flywheel with dual mass clutch?!
    £270 lighter I bought luk dual mass flywheel fitted it, tried everything would not bleed up for love nor money.
    Took the box back off thinking maybe clutch plate was wrong way round didn't think it was but i had already planted doubt so had to try. It was the right way in the first place so back out it came. Removed slave to check it, it fell apart in my hand ordered new luk one to go with all other luk clutch parts put it all back together spent 5 hours today trying everything I can think of still nothing and pedal is still on the floor
     
  28. Bloody annoying isn't it! £350 spent on new luk dyal mass flywheel and clutch and cars sitting in my garage useless.
     
    Boge85 likes this.
  29. Have you tried a pressure bleeder? I think that's what I'm going to try tomorrow. I'm passed annoyed now I'm considering braking the damned thing mate.
     
  30. I've heard not to use pressure bleeders on cocetric clutch slave cylinders, yet Eeault service manual says to use a pump directly to the slave cylinder with the bleed open, using a tube in between obviously, but whenever i've tried that i get back pressure.
    Was even given a good tip if you dob't have a pressure bleeder, put a tube between a front caliper nipple and the slave cylinder, open bleed nipple on caliper and on slave then apply pressure to brake pedal, this gives you a natural source of pressure!
    But, again in my case i just got back pressure and the hose just shot off the brake caliper, and it was tight!
     
  31. The way i've done mine (2 weekend in a row as i swap gearbox twice in 2 weeks and don't ask why...:-))
    as you ask syncros failed me and fitted my old gearbox back on while other one got fixed and then swapped again week after

    Anyway, my son was in the car pushing and lifting clutch pedal while i was opening and closing the bleed nipple in the following order:

    1-open bleed nipple
    2-press the pedal ,
    3-while pedal is still on floor close bleed nipple,
    3-lift pedal
    4- open bleed nipple
    5-press pedal again to the floor
    6-carry on untill pedal return alone to full up position.

    took me about 10-12 times pushing on 2 different days but got there in the end
    hope this help
     
  32. Tried that! :-) Service manual says open bleed then pump pedal till no more bubbles come out, then close bleed, this goes ok with me.
    Then after this it says to do your method, one pedal pump at a time, that too goes well, but no pedal feel!
    The amount of brake fluid i've gone through is incredible! I'm taking a little break from it,i had to, i didn't want my neighbours to see a grown man down on his knees crying!
     
  33. I’m going to chuck in some ramblings here as I had similar problems, but eventually managed to get it bled. Although that said, I’ve never been entirely happy with the pedal feel since, as if I have a small amount of air lurking somewhere in the system, but not enough to stop it from disengaging.

    From what you’re describing it sounds like you have air trapped upstream of the bulkhead fitting. Now I can’t picture what the full clutch circuit looks like, but there are hydraulic lines running too and from the pedal in the car. If you have any air trapped in the line coming from the pedal, then each pedal press is just going to compress that air and give you very little fluid movement when you open a line / crack a bleed nipple. For a pedal bleed to be effective, you need some good air-free fluid in the majority of the line, to give the fluid some velocity when you open a nipple, and this pull any air bubbles out with it.

    I think you need to find a way of cycling fluid through the system repeatedly in the same direction to draw out the airlock. I’d personally catch the fluid in a clean container and keep recycling it back in, don’t waste money at this stage keep using fresh. My money would be on the slave cylinder being ok, but air elsewhere in the system is stopping you getting enough pedal stroke to activate it.

    Does anyone have a drawing of the system, or could sketch it? I’ve just been out and had a nosey at mine, but the air box is restricting my view of anything.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  34. Strange you mentioning that, just the other day i was wondering right, how in the hell does the pedal transmit to the master cylinder, and was surprised at yet another hose going right to the pedal that air could have got in!
    I had the first part of the clutch line disconbected right where it turns into a flexi after the Master cylinder, good call there, air could be in there!
     
  35. Can't do a sketch just now of the clutch lines, but basically you've got the Master fluid reservoir, then a normal piece of black hose comes off the master and disappears behind the airfilter and just clamps onto a little black plastic housing mounted on the bulkhead, the plastic housing turns into a connection similar to the bleed nipple clip affair at the slave, then a flexi hose joins onto this down to the gearbox, which then turns into a rigid pipe, which then screws into the bleed nipple part, then the slave!
    I'd love to see behind the servo, what the clutch hose from the pedal goes to, it can't share the plunger that is pushed by the brake pedal, must be two seperate thins pushing to the servo rear.
     
  36. Just to add a further point, if I’m reading what you’ve said correctly, you’re seeing back-pressure when trying to push fluid from the slave cylinder bleed nipple back into the system. I’m pretty sure that can only happen if there’s either a blockage in the system (unlikely if it was working fine beforehand) or if the master cylinder isn’t fully opening.

    Have you checked that the pedal is returning to the fully ‘up’ position and therefore opening the master cylinder up to the reservoir? If the master cylinder plunger isn’t fully returning, you’ll never be able to build pressure (or only very little pressure) in the clutch line. This could also be the reason why you’re only seeing a dribble of fluid when depressing the pedal - the pedal will just be moving whatever fluid / air is present in the line backwards and forwards, rather than drawing in fresh fluid from the reservoir.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  37. I’m pretty sure that the clutch master cylinder is at the clutch pedal. So you have two lines going into it - one is from the reservoir, and the other goes to the slave.

    The difficulty with bleeding a system like this is that you want to be bleeding against gravity so that all your air bubbles just float to the top (at the reservoir). What you’re actually doing, whichever end you bleed from is forcing air down to the master cylinder before they can travel up to the reservoir. If you don’t push all the air past the MC, it will simply rise to the next high point in the system and remain there.

    As others have suggested and I’d agree would be a logical step (once you’ve cured the back-pressure issue!) would be to reverse bleed from the slave. I personally wouldn’t pressure bleed, or if you do, only use a small amount of pressure as it can damage the MC seals. The trick is, you want to pass as big a volume of brake fluid through as you can so as to keep the air moving until it is past the MC (where it will naturally migrate to the reservoir if left). If you only push small volumes through and don’t quickly refill your syringe or whatever, any air will just track back to where it started. If this is successful, you will see bubbles coming up into the reservoir.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    tof73 likes this.
  38. the clutch master cylinder is attached directly to the pedal itself as said in post above mine, if you look under the dash drive side.
    the pipe goes from there to the little plastic thingy behind the airbox and then another pipr to the salve clutch cylinder in the box cltuch bell.
     
  39. Ah,looking from the engine bay that black plastic piece the bulkhead just looks like the pipe from the master reservior goes ito the top of it and the outlet es down to the clutch, so there's a pipe going into the rear of that too, didn't know that!
    I don't suppose the clutch master inside the car has a bleed on it?
     
  40. I couldn’t see one when I had a nosey, but in theory the pipe leading to the reservoir from the MC acts as the bleed point. If you can push fluid / air to this point, it will be relieved from the system through the reservoir.

    Just another thought - you are trying to bleed with the cap off the reservoir aren’t you?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

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