Negative camber solution

Discussion in 'Suspension, Brakes, Wheels & Tyres section' started by git-r, Sep 26, 2016.

  1. Hi all,

    I'm trying to find a way of getting some negative camber on my standard 250 RS as it's appetite for the outside edge of it's front tyres is insatiable!

    Thanks to the kind membership here I now know the following are possibilities:
    Silver project
    Ast
    Kw

    Are there any others?

    Would any members be good enough to share their experiences with any of the above?

    I called RSTuning and K-tec today but neither had any suggestions.

    Thanks :smile:
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2016
  2. -Jamie-

    -Jamie- RSM Moderator

    That'a about it, KW don't do ones that fit oem suspension, Renault Kirfel have modified ones that do though.


    Any of the ones mentioned will serve you well, just depends how much you want to spend though but they all do the same thing
     
    git-r likes this.
  3. I'm going with AST for my Ohlins. As a suspension engineer I don't like the Silverproject items. The design doesn't look as robust at the OEM or AST ones.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    git-r likes this.
  4. Thanks for this. I'll drop the Kirfel place an email, are these the guys that run the Megane hire cars?

    I think you said you are running the silver project ones? Do you run standard suspension with them? What alignment are you running with them and how is it compared to stock with tyre wear and long corners?

    Sorry for all the questions!
     
  5. Would you mind saying what you don't like about the design of the silver project ones?

    Is there any difference in adjustment and fitting between them?

    Something in my confused brain cell recalls fitting top mounts to a car then having the front sit higher than it had been - it raised the car by the thickness of the plate. Is this the case?

    Thanks :smile:
     
  6. -Jamie-

    -Jamie- RSM Moderator

    Nah Kirfel are a Renault dealership that tunes/preps Meganes and other RS's for the Ring. Cracking place, English isn't th best but helped me out big time when i was over in May.

    Yeah I'm on them with Bilstein B14's. Dampers and springs are a bit soft for full on track work but the extra camber has transformed them, Ill be running -2.5degrees when i get it aligned again, Able to increase castor as well with them which is a big bonus.

    In reply to Sams comment on the design, The only issue i have with them is the adjustment is a pain in the arse so needs to be done ideally before they go on the car. They are more solid than the OEM top mounts which are a very basic design anyway, and use they same camber adjustment system as the Nitrons do.
     
    git-r likes this.
  7. Huge thanks for this - very useful!

    When you fitted them did they have any affect on the front ride height?
     
  8. -Jamie-

    -Jamie- RSM Moderator

    None at all, the are the same sort of height as the OEM topmounts
     
    git-r likes this.
  9. Gent, thanks again :smile:
     
  10. Lol and the final question :wink:

    Do the silver project ones fit with standard suspension?
     
  11. -Jamie-

    -Jamie- RSM Moderator

    Yep, 100%
     
    git-r likes this.
  12. Think it's time for some shopping :wink:

    Thanks again :smile:
     
  13. Madeno do a fixed setup with added camber: http://www.madenoracing.com/more-news/208/offset-top-mounts-Mégane-RS/


    TSUTSta.png

    According to the description it'll fit their BMR14 Sport and Clubsport suspension kits, that are modified Bilstein B14's. Should also fit the Öhlins Road&Track and Clubsport suspension sets. I don't know what the pricing is on them, havn't gotten round to contacting Madeno. I was thinking of fitting those with B14's as a fast road setup for my car...
     
    git-r likes this.
  14. Oh, and AST list their adjustable top mounts as a €340 option for the 5100 series, so I guess you can expect to pay something like that for just the top mounts:

    LEAYRLu.png
     
    git-r likes this.
  15. -Jamie-

    -Jamie- RSM Moderator

    The Madeno setup is hideously expensive though, talking around 900euros for topmounts and springs
     
    git-r likes this.
  16. For reference top mounts and springs (main and helper) from AST was £550 inc VAT.
     
    git-r likes this.
  17. Thanks chaps for all the help - much appreciated.

    I'm quite surprised at how few specialists there are for these cars.

    I've spoken to a few different places but none seemed to really know what I'm trying to do or be able to help.

    If it wasn't for this place I don't know what I'd have done :smile:

    Martijn - thanks - I've sent them an email. It seems they've really done their homework on the car.

    Also spoke to AST and fingers crossed they'll get back to me.

    Jamie - thanks again. I'll probably end up with the silver project stuff.

    Really want to get going though, I've booked oulton on Nov 4 then donnington on the 5th staying over two nights.

    My track car would probably break before getting there so really hoping to take the Renault.

    Need to get wheels and tyres too :worried:
     
  18. git-r just going back to your initial post regarding killing front tyre outers

    don't believe this is a common issue with factory components just wondering if something amiss like tyre pressures

    like others I give my RS front tyres a large time and from new to canvas the wear is consistent right across the whole tyre, cant say have heard of others just eating outside only

    did it always do this or did start slowly and is getting worse ??
     
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  19. -Jamie-

    -Jamie- RSM Moderator

    It's quite common on them when running them hard on track. I destroyed a front set of RS-Rs in one day at Knockhill due to the lack of camber and every other set that's came off the front on stock camber that's been used on track had noticeable wear to the outer shoulder
     
    git-r likes this.
  20. same, run the RS R and relatively easy to kill in one day, but the whole tyre not just outer edge, also with factory shocks
     
    git-r likes this.
  21. Thanks for this.

    I tried running 36 psi hot on the track but the tyre was rolling over hugely, wearing the sidewall. At about 40 psi it wasn't rolling over as much. I know this is high but it's the only option without running more negative camber.

    I got the alignment and all the suspension checked over before putting new tyres on and according to a garage I trust and my feel it's all good.
    On track it's excellent for the first 5 or so minutes, then overheats the edge of the front tyre, loses grip, then destroys itself lol (in my experience this is expected from any car).
    I run the AST 3 way race suspension on my track car. When fitted it was only running about -1 degree of front camber. It had been running over 2 degrees previously on a much stiffer setup.
    This drop in camber (and softer set up) resulted in me killing the outside edge of the tyres in the exact same fashion as the Renault. After increasing negative camber again it no longer killed the outside edge and gave it much more grip :smile:
    It's my fault for staying out too long but I've never had a car that is so capable at sustaining track abuse!! :smile:

    Do you run standard alignment?
     
  22. Sorry Jamie, just to clarify you're now running a bilsetin oe type shock and silver project adjustable top mounts? Do you know how much -camber you got with this setup? Do you get even wear?

    Love Knockhill, used to basically live there from about 98-2006 :smile:

     
    MartijnGizmo likes this.
  23. do you think this may have been because of wheel spin?
     
  24. -Jamie-

    -Jamie- RSM Moderator

    Running B14s with the topmounts, bit soft for proper track work but they were only a stopgap as my oem shocks were fubar and I paid the same price for them as OEM shocks. Shall be going AST after winter.


    Just one one degree now but it's going for a geo setup soon to get more dialled in, be aiming for - 2 to - 2.5 degrees. Also running more castor now, not sure exactly how much but I'd say another 2 degrees or so.


    Ive always had even wear though unless on a trackday where the outer does wear more but that's to be expected on stock geo settings
     
    git-r likes this.
  25. How have you gain the extra castor? From the top-mount adjustment?

    S.
     
  26. I think the silver project top mount have castor adjustment too.
     
  27. I got a really helpful response form Madeno:

    I'm sorry we don't have top mounts for the original suspension, the OEM springs are too wide
    and there is not enough space to adjust the strut inside the front fenders. It's only possible
    with lineair ID 60 or 65mm springs together with a sport suspension kit.

    we recommand the eccentric front lowering arm bushings and the adjustable caster bushings
    from powerflex ( the purple ones, black ones are too stiff ) to gain more camber and caster
    work perfectly with OEM suspension

    I don't want to have to change the bushes in the arms but interesting to see them saying the powerflex solution works perfectly. Also that there isn't enough room with the stock spring for adjustment.

    Do you think adding more than -1 degree will mean you have this problem?
     
  28. -Jamie-

    -Jamie- RSM Moderator

    I honestly couldn't tell you, personally wouldn't bother with the powerflex stuff either, shite design and I know more people that have removed them than left them in due to them rotating and being a pain when installed.

    Really unsure on what camber you would be able to get on the topmounts though, I'd still say it's worth it as the extra castor will still give you more dynamic camber even if you can't adjust in enough static camber
     
    git-r likes this.
  29. I agree the extra castor shall give more dynamic camber which I prefer more than static camber. We need less camber (zero is best) on straight road acceleration and braking as tyres give full contact patch.

    the Silver Project works fine with camber adjustment but the eccentric design allowing camber/caster design for other car (eg. 205) will be very painful when adjusting. I have modified my Cusco camber adjustable top mount for my 205 so it can adjust camber and castor separately. I will try to dig out the drawing for your reference
     
    git-r likes this.
  30. This was something I swap from the original plate part for my 205
     

    Attached Files:

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  31. That's way beyond my understanding but I'm impressed :smile:
     
  32. I got word back from AST that they definitely do the top mounts for the standard suspension and have stock.

    Although it would be the most expensive, getting the AST's would be easiest. My local garage can supply and fit then I wouldn't be gambling the possibility of labour costs if I had issues.

    Just wondering if there is anything else I should change whist getting the top mounts put in?

    This will be the second time I've paid for alignment in a month so keen not to do so again!
     
  33. Going ahead with the AST top mounts.

    Also got some AD08R's 235/35/19 for £105 each. Fappin bargain and good reason to stick with 19's for the time being.

    Finger's crossed these new boots will last better!

    Will report back once fitted :smile:
     
  34. Anyone had any top mounts from RSC Suspension Based in Sweden I think.
    There front camber kit comes with drop links and stiffer springs?
    The kit is designed to work with oem ohlins?
    But cost 1,270 Euro without shipping?
     
  35. I was all up for the RSC kit but the cost and the fact they don't stiffen the rear springs put me off.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  36. -Jamie-

    -Jamie- RSM Moderator

    The Renault Kirfel ones are modified to work with the OEM stuff, I wouldn't like to say 100% that they will as thats the first time I've seen them being sold as compatible with OEM stuff.
     
  37. Thanks for the info guys
     
  38. Just dropped it off at the garage.

    Had a quick chat to the mechanic and he was saying how good the Megane is.
    He advised it might be worth using some shims as well at the back to adjust toe and camber. This will encourage it to rotate more - it's pretty good already :smile:

    Hope this doesn't mean I get black flagged for drifting every track day lol.

    Should be done middle of next week but not sure when I'll be able to test it.

    Will come back with it's new AD08R's fitted.

    Happy days :smile:
     
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